533 girls

[Sydneyjames]

I have been reading some conflicting Messages around 533 Willoughby.

Some punters have great ARs from girls there! And I read a few, then others comment that they are old girls 45+.

So from people that have visited recently which girls would you recommend I try there? While I like girls 35-45, I would like to start younger and work my way up the menu :-)

On m’y to do list (of younger girls) I have :
Dior
Stephanie
Michelle - according to some ARs a must try
Karen
Fiona
Any others?

Cheers

[Dettol]

Well, in this shop the mamasan will make the choice for you and I’ll just leave it at that

[Sydneyjames]

So you are saying even if I request Michelle , I might get 55 year old Michelle and not the 30 year old?

Do you know if they do lineups?

[4647]

A lot of the reviews need to go to spec savers its pretty much a milf shop that being said there are some good ones i haven't been there for a few months but Michelle is a cracker mid 40s still as sexy as fuck and all the reviews ar spot on she is a must see not a lot of young ones there at the moment due to covit and the boss angie is the stich up queen but you have to be firm with her and be prepared to walk. I had a few issues with her the first few times I went but after she get to know you she is ok stop reading the reviews and just go

[4647]

Line ups are dependent on who is available if your a blow in angie will try to give you who ever if you don't like what's on offer say your going to walk she will usually find someone else it can be a bit of a game with her sometimes but as i said when she gets to know you she is good

[Sydneyjames]

Thanks mate!
Will definitively check it out! Thanks for tips on how to deal with Angie.

Do you have any recommendations which girls to see. :-) ?

[Raybo]

Haha 533...forget age there. Plenty of good 'girls' there. If they are 46 or 51, does it really make a difference?

[Happyman2018]

Yep
533 all old
Definitely be firm
The boss normally will tell u the name you want to ktry but it's turn out to be different

[4647]

Thanks mate!
Will definitively check it out! Thanks for tips on how to deal with Angie.

Do you have any recommendations which girls to see. :-) ?
Michelle yumi evelyn are a good start

[119tcs]

the mamasan is a c*nt, just avoid the place

[hexenducation]

Yes, Angie is pure Shanghai mamasan, and the girls are not spring chickens, but the service is pretty full on. Sadly, my ethics prevent me from ever setting foot on the place again, for Angie has no ethics.

[rooter]

Threads about 533 are always fun.
The place is like something out of another dimension or parallel universe.
Its mondo bizarro, topsy-turvy land.
Some newbie punters when they read these threads probably think, no way, this place can't be, the punters must be making up these stories.
But the thing is it is all true, and so much more.

[TheMaestro]

I don't mind 533 personally, but haven't been as many times as probably some others. I understand if you like booking girls, there may be some issues but I generally just walk in, get whoever is served up and threaten to walk if they look no good or something feels off, like playing roulette. Angie has her moments, but she is always reasonably polite and too the point and the girls generally aim to please with the services. Some of the girls are as mad as a box of frogs though. Karen seems rather young.

[alc]

Yes, Angie is pure Shanghai mamasan, and the girls are not spring chickens, but the service is pretty full on. Sadly, my ethics prevent me from ever setting foot on the place again, for Angie has no ethics.

No ethics towards the punters or the girls?

[Sydneyjames]

Thanks for the recommendations and how to approach Angie. After few comments I was thinking... skip this place.

However might do what @themaestro suggested and just walk in, see what’s available and if I don’t like it... walk away :-)

[Raybo]

Thanks for the recommendations and how to approach Angie. After few comments I was thinking... skip this place.

However might do what @themaestro suggested and just walk in, see what’s available and if I don’t like it... walk away :-)

Angie is fine, she is just doing her best to run the business as optimal as it can. TBH, a switch there isn't such a bad thing, plenty of good service, older ladies.

[hexenducation]

True that. Miss it terribly. LOL


Threads about 533 are always fun.
The place is like something out of another dimension or parallel universe.
Its mondo bizarro, topsy-turvy land.

[hexenducation]

There are stories, and personal experiences. Like everything in life, it works for some, doesn't for others.

I've personally known girls who've left in tears are a few hours on their first day. I've also known punters who've been thrown out o the street with no means of getting home at closing.

It meets a need. Best try it, if the glove fits, enjoy it. You will find it meets a need at a certain time in your life. There are some long term regulars who are oblivious to what goes, some also who just don't care so long as they get their fun.

No judgement. Happy I was a regular/happy I am no longer a regular.


No ethics towards the punters or the girls?

[hexenducation]

She certainly knows how to run a shop and trys to walk the tightrope of pleasing girls, punters, a love of money - I'd say she's hardworking and selfless, while putting herself first. Savvy business woman. She's come a long way from humble beginnings, let me tell you. Got a lot of respect for Angie, but... we certainly would not share the same ethical view of the world.


Angie is fine, she is just doing her best to run the business as optimal as it can. TBH, a switch there isn't such a bad thing, plenty of good service, older ladies.

[Sydneyjames]

Thanks for everyone’s input... I’ll let you know how I go! I will give it a good and see what’s on offer :-)

[looser]

She certainly knows how to run a shop and trys to walk the tightrope of pleasing girls, punters, a love of money - I'd say she's hardworking and selfless, while putting herself first. Savvy business woman. She's come a long way from humble beginnings, let me tell you. Got a lot of respect for Angie, but... we certainly would not share the same ethical view of the world.

I would definitely agree with the comments above. I've always had a great deal of respect for Angie, but might fair to say that if you aren't a regular, don't expect to get the exact girl that you want when you want.

[warwick1]

I have seen Karen a couple of times, each time she was "baked" but she was horny as hell and asked me to video her which I did, I did show them to another guy on the forum but best kept to myself, other than that the place is a shithole..........

[Labia Vortex]

Seems the best thing about 533 is the website

[warwick1]

Seems the best thing about 533 is the website

Maybe the Bridgeview Pub across the road.......

[Sydneyjames]

Haha you guys are funny! I guess there are more people that don’t like the place than the ones that do like it.
Nothing wrong with “baked”... recording the session would be hot though...

[hexenducation]

Yes the girls really get into things there sometime.S Karen, Joye tear regulars are as old as the hills, now how to make a quid and (hopefully) they own a few Sydney properties but sadly I think most aren’t that savvy with the cash they can pull in.

[Dettol]

They have decent gems over the years, which made the gamble worth it.

If anyone knows where Ada, Paulina, or Dior work (if they still do), I’d be grateful if you can pm me.

[Vader]

Haha 533...forget age there. Plenty of good 'girls' there. If they are 46 or 51, does it really make a difference?

Maybe you should take your headphones of and move away from 533 and Sukura

[Raybo]

Maybe you should take your headphones of and move away from 533 and Sukura

533 has it's purpose. I actually think punters don't talk about it because it isn't trendy.

[Gundam]

I black laisted them

[warwick1]

I black laisted them

Being "black laisted" is heavy...............

[GoldfishMan]

I think 533 is great for where it is.
The age demographic of that area must be at least 40+. You don't need young girls to satisfy the majority of punters in that area.
Besides, the age of the girls kind of suit the theme of "80's style" service you can get there.

[4647]

I black laisted them
I bet angie is devastated

[wilisno]

Most punters will blacklist a shop for wrong doing, until they heard about a new stunner on roster.....

[ronnyvaras]

Deleted message

[Smack]

I bet angie is devastated

Hi everyone where’s Joye ?is she ok

[Wotan]

Good advice here. 533 is great value, especially for older or more experienced punters who are less concerned with the age of the girl than her skills. They are mostly hard-working girls. I have been going there for years and have had my moments with Angie, and now she knows to be straight with me.

[solidsnake]

Wow just checked the gallery for old times sake, some of the pics (eg Michelle) are the same from almost 10 years back!

[Raybo]

Wow just checked the gallery for old times sake, some of the pics (eg Michelle) are the same from almost 10 years back!

She hasn't changed much in those years. I can't see her but she is still looking good!

[SinSeeker]

This thread brings back some memories. Been a while since I have been to 533 as I gave up on FS.

Interesting how someone either loves or hates Angie. I had a really great equation with her. Someone on this forum said she warms up to you once you have spent $1,000... Maybe that was the case.

There was maybe one occasion when she tried to switch a booking and I said thanks, but no thanks. I was about to walk and she switched the booking back. But she has been one of the better mamasans I have come across as she manages the business quite well. Wish they would spend some money to spruce up that place though [emoji849]

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk

[johnconnor69er]

As long as you go into 533 with your eyes open then it is a great place. You won't find the young spring chickens like Ginza but you do get experienced and service oriented gals. Like all places though some gals are better than other and some days for the gals are better than other. Overall I will continue to go to this place as I know what I get. PS I have spent more than $1K at 533 so maybe Angie treats me better :)

[quagmire]

Every girl in 533 is over 45, I know this for a fact because I dated 1 for a while and learnt a lot of stuff. All of the girls give great service they are all very experienced and know whats going on. Angie is one of the worst human beings I have ever met. She cares nothing for the girls, she rips them off, forces new girls to do service they don't want to do and generally treats them like machines. One of my favourites there became quite I'll last year and ended up in hospital as a result of working 7 days a week and barely sleeping. She is still not fully recovered but Angie will not leave her alone. She would work them until they drop dead and then just through them in a wheely bin out the back. I have had to ban myself from the place as I realized that by going there I was part of the problem.

[dotcumdotinyou]

Its really hard to run a brothel, you have to put up with shit from both sides (girls and customers) so you have to be hard sometimes. I know myself that when a worker calls in sick are they really sick or just feel like having a day off?
Angie's not the only one in this dilemma...42, 5star, ginza, n5m. Just ask them next time you see them.

[Raybo]

@Quagmire, heaps of younger girls over the years @ 533, certainly younger than 45.... Ricci, Paulina, Nicky, Dior, Stephanie, Evelyn just to name a few.

[johnconnor69er]

When they closed up in June, Stephanie was the only gal younger than 40 that I was aware of. Yes there has been some great gals there as you mentioned plus Bibi.

[konfuzion]

Every girl in 533 is over 45, I know this for a fact because I dated 1 for a while and learnt a lot of stuff. All of the girls give great service they are all very experienced and know whats going on. Angie is one of the worst human beings I have ever met. She cares nothing for the girls, she rips them off, forces new girls to do service they don't want to do and generally treats them like machines. One of my favourites there became quite I'll last year and ended up in hospital as a result of working 7 days a week and barely sleeping. She is still not fully recovered but Angie will not leave her alone. She would work them until they drop dead and then just through them in a wheely bin out the back. I have had to ban myself from the place as I realized that by going there I was part of the problem.
Sound the same like angela from 244 always push girls and don't care about health and if safe just love money and never ban bad custs

[zoozilla]

I have been reading some conflicting Messages around 533 Willoughby.

Some punters have great ARs from girls there! And I read a few, then others comment that they are old girls 45+.

So from people that have visited recently which girls would you recommend I try there? While I like girls 35-45, I would like to start younger and work my way up the menu :-)

On m’y to do list (of younger girls) I have :
Dior
Stephanie
Michelle - according to some ARs a must try
Karen
Fiona
Any others?

Cheers

Like good wine the older is the WL the better is the sex.

Women around 40s are ripe and sweet for sex.

Girls in their 20s still taste a bit green and bitter.

[quagmire]

Its really hard to run a brothel, you have to put up with shit from both sides (girls and customers) so you have to be hard sometimes. I know myself that when a worker calls in sick are they really sick or just feel like having a day off?
Angie's not the only one in this dilemma...42, 5star, ginza, n5m. Just ask them next time you see them.

Sorry dotcum, but that's bullshit. I've employed people for over 20 years and I am also close with a couple of shop owners and am fully aware of how difficult the industry is, but that is no excuse for not paying girls properly or trying to force them to do a service that the girl does not do, and is also unsafe. Some workers will always take the piss, but without them you don't have a business. Angie is just a greedy monster, she doesn't give a shit about anyone, be they girl or customer. I've seen it 1st hand and heard many horror storys of her treatment of the girls.

[dotcumdotinyou]

I've also been (and still am) employing people and can tell you I'm glad I'm a manufacturer and not a brothel owner. And I dated enough receptionists and gotten close to a lot of shop owners over the years to know all the shit they have to put up with. I also have a lot of Asian customers and suppliers and I have seen first hand the way they treat their employees and can tell you its completely different to the way I have to treat mine.
You have the stories from the girls side, you should also hear the other side of the story to balance it out. Angie has a lot of regular girls working for her and has been in business for a long time, if the stories were true (and some probably are to a point) she wouldn't have anyone working for her and she'd been out of business a long time ago.
Your entitled to your opinion of her quagmire but its based totally on one side of the story.

[GoldfishMan]

I've also been (and still am) employing people and can tell you I'm glad I'm a manufacturer and not a brothel owner. And I dated enough receptionists and gotten close to a lot of shop owners over the years to know all the shit they have to put up with. I also have a lot of Asian customers and suppliers and I have seen first hand the way they treat their employees and can tell you its completely different to the way I have to treat mine.
You have the stories from the girls side, you should also hear the other side of the story to balance it out. Angie has a lot of regular girls working for her and has been in business for a long time, if the stories were true (and some probably are to a point) she wouldn't have anyone working for her and she'd been out of business a long time ago.
Your entitled to your opinion of her quagmire but its based totally on one side of the story.

Yes, there's always a middle ground to every debate. I reckon it's more of a symbiosis relationship than parasitic, which is how each side would probably like to portray it while whinging to a listening ear.

[Fred Flintstone]

Went to this shop once and once only. I was offered one girl only from a line up of one. She was not my type and I politely declined, saying I will come back later. That was it. The Chinese mamasan went ballistic. Started yelling at me and literally pushed my out the door, telling me me to never come back. With customer service skills like that, I do not know how she survives in business.

All fine by me. No shortage of brothels in this city

[Eclipsefun]

533 was my go to for Anal as most of the milfs did it and charged no extra. I have described this place before as a literal 'cum bucket' before, and I stand by it. That is what it is. It isn't a GFE, or about a fantasy. Its a jizz factory.
As others have said, there is no place in Sydney like it, if you turn up and all the rooms are full they will just take you in to the breakroom and have you fuck there like it is business as usual for everyone else.

These days I prefer big tit ML milfs at massage joints. But if you are punting regularly in Sydney you should go once and consider it an initiation lol.

[halfway]

533 was my go to for Anal as most of the milfs did it and charged no extra. I have described this place before as a literal 'cum bucket' before, and I stand by it. That is what it is. It isn't a GFE, or about a fantasy. Its a jizz factory.
As others have said, there is no place in Sydney like it, if you turn up and all the rooms are full they will just take you in to the breakroom and have you fuck there like it is business as usual for everyone else.

These days I prefer big tit ML milfs at massage joints. But if you are punting regularly in Sydney you should go once and consider it an initiation lol.

Even if the Breakroom is busy I have had sessions start off in the waiting room/ ( Cupboard ) LOL.

It is a MAD house, but lot's of fun to be had there.....

[Eclipsefun]

Even if the Breakroom is busy I have had sessions start off in the waiting room/ ( Cupboard ) LOL.

It is a MAD house, but lot's of fun to be had there.....

It really is the shop were business never stops lol. Not a place for those with a strict need for privacy.

[GoldfishMan]

Went to this shop once and once only. I was offered one girl only from a line up of one. She was not my type and I politely declined, saying I will come back later. That was it. The Chinese mamasan went ballistic. Started yelling at me and literally pushed my out the door, telling me me to never come back. With customer service skills like that, I do not know how she survives in business.

All fine by me. No shortage of brothels in this city
Zero customer service, yet it thrives with so many regular customers. That alone must tell you there's something special here. That is, if you're after what they offer, otherwise leave well enough alone I say.

[ConservativeGamer]

533 was my go to for Anal as most of the milfs did it and charged no extra. I have described this place before as a literal 'cum bucket' before, and I stand by it. That is what it is. It isn't a GFE, or about a fantasy. Its a jizz factory.
As others have said, there is no place in Sydney like it, if you turn up and all the rooms are full they will just take you in to the breakroom and have you fuck there like it is business as usual for everyone else.

These days I prefer big tit ML milfs at massage joints. But if you are punting regularly in Sydney you should go once and consider it an initiation lol.Hold up. So not just Joye and Evelyn are ok with anal? I've enjoyed them both and anal is something WL my age aren't really down for.

Any other names from 533 you could drop that are down for the backdoor? Going to start planning my punts soon

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[Eclipsefun]

Hold up. So not just Joye and Evelyn are ok with anal? I've enjoyed them both and anal is something WL my age aren't really down for.

Any other names from 533 you could drop that are down for the backdoor? Going to start planning my punts soon

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

I am not familiar with the current roster, like I said in the post I have moved on. Ayumi was the one I saw most when I could, so if she is still there. When I got wise to Angie's lax booking practices I opted to just turn up and tell her "give me someone who does anal" and idk maybe 2/3 of the time it worked.

[vt4444]

Ayumi is long gone at least 3 or 4 years.

[JJBlows]

I'm interested in this place now, I don't mind a mature Chinese lady and she doesn't have to be drop dead gorgeous. I'm into the matures with some big tits and service orientated. Would it be safe to assume the woman here can be treated like real sluts like the cum on face or in mouth and throat fucking them????? Almost like watching some porn video???

I'm trying to find a replacement for Rainbow who use to work at seven Hills bonz beauty. My God she was a God of making you cum heaps and being able to treat her like a sex slave

[vt4444]

I believe some of them will be able to fulfill your fantasy. I am not sure about their recent roster now. But back in the days, I can remember Kiki, fuck like a whore apart not able to do it in the ass. Not sure about the others though. I think there was one called Megan as well. Those were the days.

[Raybo]

I'm interested in this place now, I don't mind a mature Chinese lady and she doesn't have to be drop dead gorgeous. I'm into the matures with some big tits and service orientated. Would it be safe to assume the woman here can be treated like real sluts like the cum on face or in mouth and throat fucking them????? Almost like watching some porn video???

I'm trying to find a replacement for Rainbow who use to work at seven Hills bonz beauty. My God she was a God of making you cum heaps and being able to treat her like a sex slave

Try Crystal when we are back in action. I would be interested in your opinion. Joye goes hardcore too.

[dansmithers]

Depends what you mean I guess… I think there’s a couple that are down to do some dirty / slutty stuff (eg Karen) but not sure if you were meaning they are willing to take it a bit rougher

[solidsnake]

Ayumi is long gone at least 3 or 4 years.

Oh man, Ayumi was my best punt here by far, I’d revisit her in a heartbeat if she ever got back into the game.

I think she was half Japanese but genuinely so as she was fluent.

[Raybo]

Oh man, Ayumi was my best punt here by far, I’d revisit her in a heartbeat if she ever got back into the game.

I think she was half Japanese but genuinely so as she was fluent.

Ayumi was my first punt in Sydney when I got the bug from OS. Pretty good punt.

[JJBlows]

Depends what you mean I guess… I think there’s a couple that are down to do some dirty / slutty stuff (eg Karen) but not sure if you were meaning they are willing to take it a bit rougher

I guess it comes off as rough but I'm not like that, I'm just after that porn star experience.

[Fisher]

Gladys is out of a job now.
She can ask angie for a job gladys clearly enjoyed fucking around the people of nsw for the past 9 months.

[kingwally]

Gladys is out of a job now.
She can ask angie for a job gladys clearly enjoyed fucking around the people of nsw for the past 9 months.
And what / who would be the alternative at the time? NSW state Labor is a complete and utter shitfight...would you prefer a leader like Daniel Andrews who cant remember a fucking thing, has police shoot rubber bullets at his people, and has over 800 Covid deaths on his hands?

[mrzhang]

Girls are fine, just the toxic culture from the top, no customer service, trading on past glories long gone with girls leaving, hasn’t moved with the times with business model as manager/customer service is just that, two faced. Many of the famous girls were here around 2012-2014.

[Ease]

Michelle and Karen are my picks (as with many of my fellow punters). Karen has put on a bit of weight over the COVID period - used to be stick thin with great bolt ons - boobs still great though and service as good as ever !
They’re somewhere in their 40’s and are amongst the youngest in this shop
Since I don’t get there often these days I tend to stick with the sure things, but on my way past a few weeks back I dropped in but the old favourites were busy. I was advised by Angie (who’s for crap taste in women I’d say) to try Kate
Well as usual nothing like the pics or the write up on the web site
She’s in her 40s pretty thin with A , maybe B cups. Nice face but not my type really. Her face reminds me of Sophie (Mamasan at 64! ). It’s uncanny really
Good BJ and really tries but not outstanding. Might be ok if your not expecting a spring chicken

[4647]

Michelle and Karen are my picks (as with many of my fellow punters). Karen has put on a bit of weight over the COVID period - used to be stick thin with great bolt ons - boobs still great though and service as good as ever !
They’re somewhere in their 40’s and are amongst the youngest in this shop
Since I don’t get there often these days I tend to stick with the sure things, but on my way past a few weeks back I dropped in but the old favourites were busy. I was advised by Angie (who’s for crap taste in women I’d say) to try Kate
Well as usual nothing like the pics or the write up on the web site
She’s in her 40s pretty thin with A , maybe B cups. Nice face but not my type really. Her face reminds me of Sophie (Mamasan at 64! ). It’s uncanny really
Good BJ and really tries but not outstanding. Might be ok if your not expecting a spring chicken try Betty great fun

[Ease]

Thanks Bro - I think I tired Betty a year or so back. May have been switched but she was a bit old for my liking. Didn’t compare to the likes of Michelle - service was anything goes tho

[kpopcity]

533 is a bit of a trip for me so I've never really tried a lot of the lineup. Karen used to work at 64 Alexander Taren Point as Nana but doesn't anymore, so I went specifically there to 533 for her.

Im keen to try Michelle and Evelyn. Anyone know if they work anywhere else and not up north? Looking for similar services closer to the inner west/south

[syd_azn_guy]

wat is bad about 533?

[Fisher]

Plenty of evidence of bad management on this forum.
Search 533 in review section and read reports and you will find what is bad about 533.

[cplurt2]

I wonder if the old condom is still hanging off the ceiling in the upstairs bathroom above the cupboard

[warwick1]

I wonder if the old condom is still hanging off the ceiling in the upstairs bathroom above the cupboard

Probably, I reckon it's been re used a few times.........

[TheMaestro]

Probably, I reckon it's been re used a few times.........

Which of you fella’s was it?

[Aphantom]

I have been reading some conflicting Messages around 533 Willoughby.

Some punters have great ARs from girls there! And I read a few, then others comment that they are old girls 45+.

So from people that have visited recently which girls would you recommend I try there? While I like girls 35-45, I would like to start younger and work my way up the menu :-)

On m’y to do list (of younger girls) I have :
Dior
Stephanie
Michelle - according to some ARs a must try
Karen
Fiona
Any others?

Cheers

If you’re going to go there you should also try the 2 stalwarts: Evelyn and Joye (who may not make your age cut off). Service and attitude are top notch. That is if you want the complete experience

[John Holmes]

No ethics towards the punters or the girls?

During the golden years she had it all, great roster of girls and truck loads of punters coming from all over town but she got greedy. The greed consumed all her ethics and start treating the girls and punters like shit.
Lots of talents and punters have left this site due to her treatment with people, but with her pride, I doubt she has an ounce of regret thinking back when the money used to poured into her business

[Smack]

Could not agree more JH . Recently caught Angie winding back the clock by 15 minutes in room 3 i showed her my watch with correct time ,she just shrugged .!, Been going to 533 for nearly 10 years and have a pretty good relationship with Angie but she try’s to scam you every time You go there and tells obviously lies to your face, plenty of other place’s that appreciate your business

[suka02]

Definetely true. i been going there many times before due to that clock watcher. i haven’t been back. Did half hour but always got out after 15-20min. service has gone downhill. I find it kinda bit rude too when you talk to her wanting to book or inquire. 533 is out my list now.

[fud]

Several moons ago, my mate and I had booked over the phone, 2 girls whom we had seen previously, but when we arrived neither was available.
Despite our protestations, she said wait, they'll be out shortly.
So we did, the first girl that was free, she'd pushed to my mate despite being a different girl to what was booked.
As we had waited long enough, my mate agreed to go with her, when he'd finished after a 1/2 hr session, she was presented to me as the 2nd girl I had booked, seemingly not knowing or had forgotten that was my mate I went with and I had seen who he had.

We walked out there and then.
Nasty PoS, never went back.

[looser]

Many years ago, 533 was my favorite store. The price is reasoanble and the girls were all very good. Eventually, though, I got sick of hearing "she will be available soon", which turns into "10 minutes", which then turns into a 40 minute to sometimes over an hour wait. It wasn't just a one off, or occassionally, but became the norm. I would love to go back, as the girls look pretty good to me and I do like the shop, but just couldn't be bothered waiting for so long, and getting the time cut. Angie is a nice and very personable, and never had an issue with her, but I do feel she has let down some of her loyal customers (which I was at the time).