Sydney property market and Chinese money and general property investing

[PhoBot]

Thought this would be a good place to discuss as we have a lot of enlightened Chinese bros.

This really is happening at the moment. I'm not a RE agent but I work in an associated industry and talk to a lot of agents, and most are reporting 50% of the transaction have Chinese on one side.

I'm actually selling an investment house at the moment. After 1 week on the market there are more Chinese after it than fresh lobster at Sunday Yum Cha!!

Here is my call on what's happening. The Sydney market isn't in a bubble, but it definitely in a surge which I feel will soften in 9 months.

Would love to hear some comments.

[paulgallen]

there are more chinese millionairnes than whole population of Oz. So they can pretty much buy up sydney and push the prices out of reach of locals.

[ukoyrnez]

It's not a recent thing. They've been buying up for years now with cash. "I can pay now! Give me the contract, I'll write you up a cheque in full!"

It is quite annoying when you're trying to pay market value and get outbid to the whazoo, if they want it, unless you're a multimillionaire yourself, there's not much of a chance competing. Case in point - Chatswood.

[ogunana]

Just a personal thought, those ridiculously rich non-residents (often from china?) should be restricted further in terms of buying properties here. They just seem to be pushing up the prices higher and higher, and at this rate us ordinary young Aussies are never going to be able to save up enough money to buy any decent property...
I projected my own income with very optimistic payrises and calculated that at this rate, in like 10 years time I'll be able to save up enough money to pay for the deposit on a small studio apartment, while at the same time taking up a 30+ year mortgage loan... and this is without subtracting away my punting fund... fuck reality.

[wilisno]

The rush started long before 1997 when HongKong was to return to Mainland China, those HongKong millionaires feared their money would get trapped and couldn't get out, and also they wanted to pave the way for migration. Many of them sent their children over to study, bought up properties, used the rental money as their school fees and expenses, got a degree then applied for PR. A price of a mansion in Vaucluse at that time was only equivalent to an apartment there in HongKong up the mountain, so it was a bargain !

[tarl1975]

Their buying power is quite scary. I was talking to an agent a few weeks ago. They sold 4 properties ranging from $500K to $2m over one weekend -- all to Chinese and all properties sold at record price in the area.

[tpol]

I really dont know how young people can afford houses anymore.

Probably wait for inheritance

[paulgallen]

wait for the mother of all crashes. anyone seen the documentary about the ghost cities ? cities of emptied apartments built for the sake of economic growth and creating jobs. but no one lives in those finished apartment becos first not many can afford to rent them and secondly its in the middle of nowhere. Seriously watch for china's crash, when it does it will hit Oz. Oz has been spared of the property price falls compared to other western countries.

[tarl1975]

I heard an interesting conversation while waiting for a bus once. This young and fat Chinese guy said to his ordinary looking (both face and body) girlfriend, "why don't you ask your father give you AUD $1m and I will ask my father for AUD $1m, then we can buy a place in the eastern suburb or lower north shore once we finish uni." The girl said "that's a good idea. I will call my father tonight". Shocking, isn't it!!

[IExperiment]

I heard an interesting conversation while waiting for a bus once. This young and fat Chinese guy said to his ordinary looking (both face and body) girlfriend, "why don't you ask your father give you AUD $1m and I will ask my father for AUD $1m, then we can buy a place in the eastern suburb or lower north shore once we finish uni." The girl said "that's a good idea. I will call my father tonight". Shocking, isn't it!!

lol yes it's true we just have to wait for a few more years but I dont think it is going to stop :)
There will be more of them coming over. This is the reason I keep on saying there is still lots of money here in Sydney its all about trend.

[pjs]

The government really needs to put a stop to foreign buyers or charge a ridiculously high tax for foreign investors.
The citizens of Aus should have priority and not foreigners with too much bloody money.
The only reason why the Chinese are buying in Australia is because they cannot own their own land, they can only lease it from the government or/ are buying the right to use that plot of land.

[PhoBot]

wait for the mother of all crashes. anyone seen the documentary about the ghost cities ? cities of emptied apartments built for the sake of economic growth and creating jobs. but no one lives in those finished apartment becos first not many can afford to rent them and secondly its in the middle of nowhere. Seriously watch for china's crash, when it does it will hit Oz. Oz has been spared of the property price falls compared to other western countries.

Sydney property prices have been going to crash for the last 25 years (according to some) Those ghost are more a product of bad planning and don't really reflect demand supply in China. There are no ghost cities around Shanghai/Beijing

[IExperiment]

The government really needs to put a stop to foreign buyers or charge a ridiculously high tax for foreign investors.
The citizens of Aus should have priority and not foreigners with too much bloody money.
The only reason why the Chinese are buying in Australia is because they cannot own their own land, they can only lease it from the government or/ are buying the right to use that plot of land.

They should and they will when they smarten up, in the old days even permanent resident get the pension but they caught up to it a while back now they have to be citizen.

[B-man]

I've been going to China since 2000 and lived there for 3-4 years since then, speak the language, heck, i even married a chinese girl once! :surprise:. I have seen (and profited) from the property market in China and have seen alot.

I've lived in HK and seen the amazing property prices there and what we get in Australia for price vs value and size is chalk and cheese, Australia is very lucky for what we can get.

I remember the HK'ers back in 1997 when I was buy an apartment in Sydney, they pushed prices up considerably but it was over quickly and prices settled down.

For the Chinese side, I've been waiting for a 'Chinese bubble' for nearly 15 years and it hasn't happened. I don't think it will happen so we should stop thinking about it. China is a part planned economy and the govt is so rich and powerful (owning nearly 35% of the businesses in China) which don't make profits but super profits they can afford to have construction and development which puts our infrastructure projects to shame. That's why there is a very low occupancy rate in many buildings in HK. Though we wouldn't survive this the Chinese Govt can.

The Chinese can't buy more than 2 properties in China under new regulations a few years ago. Some provinces have but a capital gains tax on sales under 5 years for up to 20% which has dampened the market. This has fuelled property purchases in HK and around the world. HK last year put a 15% stamp duty on property purchases by non residency and it has stopped the sales somewhat but prices still continue to rise steadily.

The difference in Australia is the property purchases for Chinese isn't a bubble and most will not bat an eyelid if there is an additional stamp duty or tax as they want to park their cash somewhere for the children to go to Uni or get a visa to come to Australia so this will have little effect on the overall sales for over $1million property sales. All the talk here about putting a stop to it won't really work as many properties are not suited to Chinese and it's only in certain regions and suburbs that owners are profiting it from.

[wilisno]

I've been going to China since 2000 and lived there for 3-4 years since then, speak the language, heck, i even married a chinese girl once! :surprise:. I have seen (and profited) from the property market in China and have seen alot.

I've lived in HK and seen the amazing property prices there and what we get in Australia for price vs value and size is chalk and cheese, Australia is very lucky for what we can get.

I remember the HK'ers back in 1997 when I was buy an apartment in Sydney, they pushed prices up considerably but it was over quickly and prices settled down.

For the Chinese side, I've been waiting for a 'Chinese bubble' for nearly 15 years and it hasn't happened. I don't think it will happen so we should stop thinking about it. China is a part planned economy and the govt is so rich and powerful (owning nearly 35% of the businesses in China) which don't make profits but super profits they can afford to have construction and development which puts our infrastructure projects to shame. That's why there is a very low occupancy rate in many buildings in HK. Though we wouldn't survive this the Chinese Govt can.

The Chinese can't buy more than 2 properties in China under new regulations a few years ago. Some provinces have but a capital gains tax on sales under 5 years for up to 20% which has dampened the market. This has fuelled property purchases in HK and around the world. HK last year put a 15% stamp duty on property purchases by non residency and it has stopped the sales somewhat but prices still continue to rise steadily.

The difference in Australia is the property purchases for Chinese isn't a bubble and most will not bat an eyelid if there is an additional stamp duty or tax as they want to park their cash somewhere for the children to go to Uni or get a visa to come to Australia so this will have little effect on the overall sales for over $1million property sales. All the talk here about putting a stop to it won't really work as many properties are not suited to Chinese and it's only in certain regions and suburbs that owners are profiting it from.

Umm... words from someone who actually knows !

[Huangbanana]

The market is always about demand and supply, and the market will always correct itself in the end....with the significant investor visa that the govt introduced it will skew the price for certain high end properties but not enough to move the market as a whole. Australians can't say that they don't want Chinese investors buying up property because when they buy, govt get their cut, they have funds for roads schools and other projects and keeps our economy ticking over...

[puntbook]

Australians are happy for their property prices to go up yet they complain that foreign buyers are making it difficult for locals to get into the property market. Well without foreign buyers, current property prices are unjustified. So take your pick, you either want foreign buyers paying top dollar for your properties or you don't, but stop whinging.

The average house now costs 9-10 times the average salary. You don't have to be Einstein to realize this is unsustainable unless of course there is money coming in from offshore.

[GoldfishMan]

Yes yes yes, I too have been quietly observing the property drama that is unfolding in the Sydney market.
I reckon all of this sudden surge of Chinese money has something to do with the change in the Chinese government leadership that happened at the end of last year.
The reasoning? If the money was obtained through government connections, surely a change in government would threaten their livelihoods. So they use any means possible to get their money out of the country.
Just my 2c...

[IExperiment]

Well I dont really care about the price going up :)
I care if it going down, we all wanted our investment property going up not down so let the chinesse in I say :)

[paulgallen]

so u reckon price out the local aussie bogans and force them to live at the back of dubbo ? so sydney becomes china-nised ? as long as they bring their fair share of WL i guess, we need some fringe benefit for loss of our land

[IExperiment]

so u reckon price out the local aussie bogans and force them to live at the back of dubbo ? so sydney becomes china-nised ? as long as they bring their fair share of WL i guess, we need some fringe benefit for loss of our land

I am sorry Paul :) there was a saying (joke) a decade back if you dont make it in sydney you can go to melbourne :) as it was cheaper but now maybe you have to go to Brisbane and in another decade maybe NT :)

You are right at least we get to FS their young hottie :)

[porkswordsman]

I've had 3 bites at the Sydney property market.

1) Semi in Annandale in 1974. Price $24,000 and still own it. Now worth $1.1 million.

2) Semi in Ashsbury in 1981. Price $72,000 and still own it Now worth $900,000.

3) Unit in Cronulla in 1992. Price $178,000 and still own it. Now worth $600,000.

Who said Oz wasn't the lucky country?

[IExperiment]

I've had 3 bites at the Sydney property market.

1) Semi in Annandale in 1974. Price $24,000 and still own it. Now worth $1.1 million.

2) Semi in Ashsbury in 1981. Price $72,000 and still own it Now worth $900,000.

3) Unit in Cronulla in 1992. Price $178,000 and still own it. Now worth $600,000.

Who said Oz wasn't the lucky country?

Fuck better used the money dude no point taking it to the grave :)
What are you 60+ ...lol...

[porkswordsman]

Correct....I am 63. As far as taking it to the grave I've been putting the rent from the properties into a fund that benefits poor Indonesian families.

[wilisno]

Correct....I am 63. As far as taking it to the grave I've been putting the rent from the properties into a fund that benefits poor Indonesian families.

Good on you bro ! We need more people like you in this world ! Respect !

[tpol]

I've had 3 bites at the Sydney property market.

1) Semi in Annandale in 1974. Price $24,000 and still own it. Now worth $1.1 million.

2) Semi in Ashsbury in 1981. Price $72,000 and still own it Now worth $900,000.

3) Unit in Cronulla in 1992. Price $178,000 and still own it. Now worth $600,000.

Who said Oz wasn't the lucky country?

well done dude !!

Are you able to live off the rent? It is very hard to work out how much you need to retire on and how long it can sustain you especially for unexpected expenses.

If you are able to get a 10% yield on each that would be say $2600 a week. $10,400 a month.

My parents bought their home in Strathfield in 1980 for $55K. It is now worth close to $2M.

[porkswordsman]

I haven't retired yet. Too young.

I realize it's matter of luck and timing because as baby-boomer, property was ridiculously cheap then and no-one expected Sydney to become the global city that it is today.

But luck goes both ways......I'm racked with cancer now and the only thing that works properly is my cock. hahahahaha (seriously)

[tpol]

sorry to hear about your cancer. I have immediateky family who is battling that today

[Modus]

One other question you are neglecting is - where is the money coming from? Sure there are a lot of self made millionaires but a good portion of them are corrupt officials, taking the "people's money" also known as Chairman Mao's money. Since the new chairman stepped in this year, there has been a crackdown on corruption and officials skimming this money, problem is a lot of them have spent it and can't return the funds (gambling, poor investments, punting, overseas trips, kids overseas studying)

Unable to return the funds and fear of being imprisoned or executed, there is a mad rush to squirrel all funds out of China to overseas safe havens, namely Australia and apply for citizenship.

Australia is especially lucrative given it is a stable economy, close proximity to China and the Visa 888.

Visa 888? Julia Gillard had organised this for the mega rich Chinese (hence 888) who can skip the immigration queue by coughing up $5 million for a visa. The $5million will be locked in government bonds or invested in Australian businesses.

It's a double edged sword, the future generation will face a greater uphill battle to home ownership, but our lifestyle will be better with improved government services?

Just a little insight with my connections in China