Council Corruption

[goulash]

Some of us more in tune with current affairs will remember the Chatswood RNT saga where a dumb fuck council inspector had to face a grilling at the ICAC about getting freebies from the shop he was paid to inspect... corruption is subtle, often trivial as in this case, but is the tip of the iceberg to a breakdown of law and due process. A not what you know but who you know culture. It has always been thus but it's unfair and not right.

Yesterday I dropped into an ex-ML's new shop. After a long chat she took a call that she let me listen in on which was from a local council inspector. At first I though he was some slime pretending to be an inspector but she showed me his business card. He admitted taking cash from one shop but wanted more than cash (the ML in question is rather cute girl who I've fucked more than once) and promised to help close the more popular shop if he could come to some arrangement with her.

How much of your hard earned punters money is going to the girls and how much is greasing the palms of dodgy council inspectors?

If the illegal brothel industry (RNT shops are almost always illegal brothels) is worth $10M in Sydney per annum, that's a lot of corruption and unregulated sex work.

And think of the poor pretty Asian girls who have to service dodgy men like this.

Made me go home and have a good look at myself in the mirror. Maybe Im too old to pay to play anymore.

[harmony]

Newspaper and radio today confirm that councils are paying private investigators to have sex with WL
This evidence is then being used to take down illegal brothels

Nice work if you can get it

[duksta]

Is it just me that thinks that this being posted is suspiciously timed, considering SMH's articles today...

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/councils-hire-sex-spies-to-catch-parlours-in-the-act-20140920-10jigg.html

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/this-man-has-had-sex-with-60-prostitutes-8211-and-sydneys-ratepayers-footed-the-bill-20140920-10iwug.html

Also, congratulations to Aus99 for being proclaimed as the "the biggest Asian sex website in Australia"! Mind you, this is proclaimed by our favourite reporter Mr Duff, Australia's biggest Asian sex site reporter....

[WHITEDUDE]

We should bash council pricks like him what a wanker. :fire:

[Atomique]

If I ran an illegal sex shop I'd jump at the opportunity to have a council official on my payroll. Not only would I get protection (or at least advance notice of a raid) but I could also get him to stamp out my competition in the local area. Genius! Ideally I would pay him with free fucks from my girls (I'd secretly film it to have blackmail material in case I ever needed it) Or even better, bring them in as a silent partner so they are 100% committed to the success of the business!

[goulash]

I didn't see the SMH articles.

Bash the council inspector? No. Crime does not begat crime. Fighting crime with crime is a long spiral down.

Sure, if I owned shops I'd probably like to have a inside guy looking out for me. It might be good business but it doesn't make it right. Insider trading? Pyramid selling? Hmmm... someone always gets hurt eventually.

I figured that if this council inspector was happy to sell his integrity for a free weekly fuck and a little cash in had then go for it. It says a lot about him. Feel sorry for his family.

[CunningLinguist]

Is it just me that thinks that this being posted is suspiciously timed, considering SMH's articles today...

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/councils-hire-sex-spies-to-catch-parlours-in-the-act-20140920-10jigg.html

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/this-man-has-had-sex-with-60-prostitutes-8211-and-sydneys-ratepayers-footed-the-bill-20140920-10iwug.html

Also, congratulations to Aus99 for being proclaimed as the "the biggest Asian sex website in Australia"! Mind you, this is proclaimed by our favourite reporter Mr Duff, Australia's biggest Asian sex site reporter....

Can you imagine the conversations this 60 year old punter has at the pub with his mates!
BUT he has broken the punters code, which is wrong ...

[aussiegaigin]

Mind you, this is proclaimed by our favourite reporter Mr Duff, Australia's biggest Asian sex site reporter....

Maybe we should report him to Rupert Murdoch for using one of his trademarked product names.

[aussiegaigin]

Newspaper and radio today confirm that councils are paying private investigators to have sex with WL
This evidence is then being used to take down illegal brothels

Nice work if you can get it

"Brothel Busters" have been around for ages, with lots of previous media exposure.

But it not just brothels where council inspectors are open to corruption.

[The Fonz]

There is no doubt that this guy is a member of this forum. All in the name of researching targets.
And he probably is/was before a regular punter along with some in the newspaper media. News Limited makes money from all these illegal operators.

It's a bit like foreign property investment in Australia, no one enforces the law here in the state of NSW when there is money involved. The operators now think blatantly advertising and shop front businesses and the run around with the council is just the cost of business. This stuff has gone on for at least 20yrs where the Councils have to do all the hard work. The councils should be sending the bill for each prosecution to the Premiers Department.

NSW could make dealing with the illegal establishments it once again criminal offense with a police responsibility like in Queensland, and put female cops in charge to manage the it.
But instead of arresting the girls, as some are just doing it as a part time job, the arresting should be targeting the owners, the immigration agents, and the people who import the girls . And target the owners with property seizures under proceeds of crime.

Police padlocking of premises should be done as well.

Another thing is these operators have themselves to blame for articles like in the Herald and attracting councils attention and most likely a crackdown. Names like "Pretty Baby Massage" in big letters on a shop front window is guaranteed to attract attention of the authorities, so too those blinking led light "open" signs and the large advertising stickers some operators put on shop front windows.

[duksta]

And he probably is/was before a regular punter along with some in the newspaper media. News Limited makes money from all these illegal operators.

.

In the article he claims to have never punted before being hired for this job. But it wouldn't surprise anyone if he's a member here....

[The Fonz]

If I ran an illegal sex shop I'd jump at the opportunity to have a council official on my payroll. Not only would I get protection (or at least advance notice of a raid) but I could also get him to stamp out my competition in the local area. Genius! Ideally I would pay him with free fucks from my girls (I'd secretly film it to have blackmail material in case I ever needed it) Or even better, bring them in as a silent partner so they are 100% committed to the success of the business!
Beware of disgruntled staff and other operators who will tip of the authorities. Corruption activities are likely to eventually attract the attention of ICAC. Believe it or not, ICAC does a pretty good job identifying low and mid tier corruption. ICAC has also had some recent successes with high level corruption with the Newcastle enquiry.
There were inspectors from Parramatta Council and Chatswood Council who ended up in jail because they were on the payroll of the sex shop.

[the_boss_king]

If I ran an illegal sex shop I'd jump at the opportunity to have a council official on my payroll. Not only would I get protection (or at least advance notice of a raid) but I could also get him to stamp out my competition in the local area. Genius! Ideally I would pay him with free fucks from my girls (I'd secretly film it to have blackmail material in case I ever needed it) Or even better, bring them in as a silent partner so they are 100% committed to the success of the business!

you might just be onto something there :cool2:

[Licker]

NSW could make dealing with the illegal establishments it once again criminal offense with a police responsibility like in Queensland, and put female cops in charge to manage the it.
But instead of arresting the girls, as some are just doing it as a part time job, the arresting should be targeting the owners, the immigration agents, and the people who import the girls . And target the owners with property seizures under proceeds of crime.

Police padlocking of premises should be done as well.


I think your reply shows that you don't know the current law.
And your solution would be to go back to Victorian age like they (almost) are in Queensland?
Or based on your username is this some 50's US moral sentiment? (just kidding, we all have our idols)
Also your solution is to make a crime out of something that most people don't regards as crime and a service for which there is definitely a large demand.

NSW does not have the same problem as QLD and Victoria have in regards to criminal gangs (bikies or some Asian gangs) owning the massage parlours.
In places where running these massage parlours is a criminal offence, they are often ran by people who disregards the law in other ways as well, and that brings in the sex slavery, drugs, money lending...

We have actually a fairly good situation here in NSW in that regard, and it is mostly due to the more liberal law.


"illegal establishments"
Clearly you have bought into the terminology that's been used in the yellow papers and the inferred other criminal activities that are happening (though there is no proof of that) in the massage parlous.
Let's remember that prostitution is legal in NSW.
So the only offence these places are committing is operating an legal service in a property that has no council development approval for that service (providing sexual services = i.e. act as a brothel). As an offence this is pretty much the same as opening a fish and chips shop in a place where the kitchen has not passed the council inspection.


"instead of arresting the girls"
So do you want to criminalize prostitution in NSW? Or why would they arrest the girls?


"the arresting should be targeting the owners"
I suppose you mean in that imaginary scenario of criminal offense after your proposed law changes?


"the immigration agents, and the people who import the girls"
import the girls?
It seems you have bought into the (Cris Seage / Eamonn Duff) propaganda that there is some large organization that is importing girls to these "illegal" places. Possible even as sex slaves?
For your information, the only cases I've seen in NSW that have gone to court or have even been investigated by AFP in relation to sex slavery have been in legal brothels.
The news articles about year and a half ago about using the immigration loop wholes (indicating some immigration agents and some colleges) to get sex workers student visas also only mentioned some legal brothels.


"target the owners with property seizures under proceeds of crime."
Do you really propose that the property owner should be targeted if the tenant is committing a crime?


Councils have to do all the hard work
So instead of having Councils do their work, you would like to shift this to the police?
The police is overworked as is trying to fight real crime and real criminals.
And it would probably cost even more.
And it would still be us tax payers who pay the bill.



Have you considered that there might be a better solution?

Below are some of my thoughts on the matter.

How about changing the law so that massage with HE is not considered prostitution, as it currently is.
In the letter of the law happy end is considered prostitution same as full service.
In reality most people in the society do not consider these the same thing, should the law reflect that?

Or how about changing the way councils approve properties for the use as a brothel?
Including some of the ridiculous requirements for the DA's, like a brothel must not be on ground floor and at the same time it must have a disabled access (they cant get rid of the latter one, as that would be discriminatory, but they could get rid of the first one)

Why the law should be changed into a more liberal one?
(nothing to do with the party with the same name)

Well, if the SMH counts that there are 9 legal brothels and 19 "illegal" brothels in the Willoughby / North Sydney area, then clearly there is a public demand for these services.
Why do SMH and other yellow papers write about this? Not because it would be a major problem, but because sex always sells papers.

Looking at the transcripts of the council meetings the complaints that instigate the proceeding (the hard work) come 99% percent of the time from other businesses (= legal brothels), or from individuals (or should I say an individual) who have an vested interest, i.e. is hired by legal brothels.
There are virtually no complaints (apart from the apartment building in Chatwood, where these places were clearly in a wrong place) from the residents.


Looking this from the customers perspective:
There are plenty of people who are comfortable in going to a massage place and have a tug after the rub, but are not comfortable going into a FS place, they may not want FS.

Looking this from the girls' perspective:
There are many girls who are comfortable working in a massage place and offer a hand job, but are not comfortable offering full service.
Clearly some girls may offer more to selected customers, but at least they have the option, which they would not have in a FS place.

And there are currently also places which have a DA to operate as a brothel, but advertise as massage, and the girls can decide what they are comfortable offering.

[wilisno]

Bravo ! Can't be clearer brother Licker !

[CunningLinguist]

Licker is bang on the money!

[Atomique]

NSW has one of the most leniant approaches to prostitution in the western world. When a few shops break the law (provide sex services without proper licensing) it runs the risk of ruining things for everybody (punters, sex workers and legit shop owners)

Lets not forget that a significant percentage of the NSW community isn't on board with this whole decriminalised prostitution thing. When greedy rogue operators start setting up unlicensed rub and tug shops in their neighbourhood these people get pissed and start complaining to their council and local member. thats when parliament starts talking about reviews of current arrangements.

solution - we have leniant, enlightened prostitution laws. shops need to work within those laws. shops operating outside those parametres run the risk of upsetting the applecart and should be boycotted for the good of everyone!

[The Fonz]

Spoken like a true shop owner/associate

Good post. Thanks for the info.

It's pretty simple really, operate a business that you are licensed to in the premises, abide by the laws, pay your taxes, and no one will write articles about you or hound you. Just like every other person in this country has to when operating a business.

I'm thinking that too,

The council won't go after an operator if they have planning approval.
The Immigration Dept. won't target operators who properly check visas to ensure their staff can work,
The Australian Tax Office won't go after operators who pay tax
The Police won't go after an operator that prohibits drugs in the premise.

Illegal establishment = shop which does not have planning approval to carry out business not specified in the approval process.
There are operators out there who are making big dollars by deliberately ignoring the law. According to the poster that seems to be okay.
I can understand why some in the public would get upset with operators running a R&T business 2 doors down from a girls high school like the Edgeworth David Ave at Hornsby example the SMH has mentioned in its article.
These operators left unchecked will drag the whole legit industry down
,

As an offence this is pretty much the same as opening a fish and chips shop in a place where the kitchen has not passed the council inspection.

And the fish and chip shop will be shut down too if they have not passed inspection under current laws. Why should an illegal operator be treated any differently?

And as I stated in the previous post, the law should be targeting the illegal operators, not the girls who work there.

[lockhart]

Goulash... make that corrupted council worker be meat of the casserole - report him -- email to the council Manager and ICAC

[goulash]

Goulash... make that corrupted council worker be meat of the casserole - report him -- email to the council Manager and ICAC

No, its not my battle to fight, and it's not in the interests of the ML running her shop who technically is breaking planning laws herself, and is therefore, running an illegal business.

And I don't want to play citizen sheriff.

[duksta]

So what you're saying is that you are profiting from the activities of an illegal business, which is in turn potentially profiting from corruption, and apart from "exposing" it on a forum, you're not going to do anything, even though you prefaced this by saying how "not right" this sort of corruption is.

Your silence makes you part of the problem, not the solution. Why expose this if you didn't expect something to be done?

[goulash]

...do you report every illegal (unlicensed) knocking shop you visit? Or are you part of the problem?

You might be surprised how few knocking shops are actually licensed for sexual services. It's a wonder to me how many dodgy massage shops there are (and a dodgy massage shop always has at least one girl who fuck for money either in secret or in the knowledge of the boss) and why they don't get closed down. Even after complaints.

[duksta]

Err... you're the one wrestling with your conscience here. Why doesn't your ML properly register her business?

[Atomique]

duksta is 100% right Goulash - your position is inconsistent!


Err... you're the one wrestling with your conscience here. Why doesn't your ML properly register her business?

[Licker]

Err... you're the one wrestling with your conscience here. Why doesn't your ML properly register her business?

What do you mean by "properly register"?

Are you talking about getting a Development approval to operate as a brothel?
If so, do you know what the process is?

First of all, it is the property owner who should apply for it (since the DA is for a property=building, not a shop=business).
So if you are leasing and cannot convince the landlord to apply, there's not much you can do.

Secondly, it is not just a "register" process.
The property has to meet a lot of criteria (some of which totally arbitrary and depends on the individual council) and currently on the North Shore the process may take up to 10 years since some of the councils don't want to pass these applications (even those that meet every single criteria).
Ku-ring-gai Council is the worst, with the Mayor stating: "There will be no new brothels as long as I am the mayor"

So, that is why they apply for a DA for remedial massage, cause it is easier to get.

The last 3 applications that resulted into a new DA for brothel - one in Pymble, one in Hornsby (despite the mayor) and one in Artarmon) all took several years to process, and costed tens of thousands in legal fees, until the council decisions were overruled by the court (land and environment court, which handles planning decisions), because in each case the councils had not had any legal basis on rejecting the applications.
They all operated for a while as "illegal" ones (during the process), one operated for a while under a 12 month probationary approval for 2 years (after which the permanent one was rejected, then taken to court and overruled after a lengthy process).

In one of these cases the council asked opinions from the police, traffic planning dept, the neighboring business and property owners (residents)- pretty much everyone they can think of, who all said that there was no reason to reject the application, yet council rejected it on bases "not enough parking space". Though the place had already been operating about 10 years and is next to a bottle shop (for which there apparently is enough parking space).

In one case (in industrial area, where all neighboring businesses gave their approval) it was rejected due a gym at the other end of the building, where apparently adults MIGHT take there kids with them on Saturdays (this was the council's view, not the gym's).
Yet again overruled by court.


So I ask:
If you were planning on opening for example a restaurant, and to get approved you would have to invest money into the property, in addition to renovating it, building kitchen to the required standards, and even when all dots were crossed, would not know whether you can legally open for business anytime within the next (say) five years.
Would you invest your money in that?

I also ask from those of you who are dead set on having these "illegal brothels" to obey the law or be shut down and that these "illegal brothels" should be treated like any other business.
Do you think that they are treated like any other business?
I don't think so.

I also ask:
Would you also expect the councils to obey the law, when doing decisions on planning approvals?
When everything in the application meats the requirements of the law and also the individual council's planning policy requirements and is still rejected and takes (in one of these cases three separate court decisions) up to ten years to get a business running.
Is that according to due process from the councils?

Yes, in each case the councils have had to pay a small penalty when they've lost the case, and they've also spent considerable amount of money in legal proceedings (way more than trying to get the illegal ones closed).

All of this information is public. It's available from the councils' websites as all council meetings and DA's are public records.
Why is SMH not writing about this?

[CunningLinguist]

Why is SMH not writing about this?

Cos it doesn't sell papers ...

[Licker]

Cos it doesn't sell papers ...

I know that :)

It was a rhetorical question.

One more point on the councils' actions: I would not call it "illegal" as that word has such a dirty and vicious ring to it.
Let's call it unlawful.
But I suppose that's okay and normal, they are after all politicians.

[CunningLinguist]

I know that :)

It was a rhetorical question.


I knew that :)

[AHLUNGOR]

What do you mean by "properly register"?

Are you talking about getting a Development approval to operate as a brothel?
If so, do you know what the process is?

First of all, it is the property owner who should apply for it (since the DA is for a property=building, not a shop=business).
So if you are leasing and cannot convince the landlord to apply, there's not much you can do.

Secondly, it is not just a "register" process.
The property has to meet a lot of criteria (some of which totally arbitrary and depends on the individual council) and currently on the North Shore the process may take up to 10 years since some of the councils don't want to pass these applications (even those that meet every single criteria).
Ku-ring-gai Council is the worst, with the Mayor stating: "There will be no new brothels as long as I am the mayor"

So, that is why they apply for a DA for remedial massage, cause it is easier to get.

The last 3 applications that resulted into a new DA for brothel - one in Pymble, one in Hornsby (despite the mayor) and one in Artarmon) all took several years to process, and costed tens of thousands in legal fees, until the council decisions were overruled by the court (land and environment court, which handles planning decisions), because in each case the councils had not had any legal basis on rejecting the applications.
They all operated for a while as "illegal" ones (during the process), one operated for a while under a 12 month probationary approval for 2 years (after which the permanent one was rejected, then taken to court and overruled after a lengthy process).

In one of these cases the council asked opinions from the police, traffic planning dept, the neighboring business and property owners (residents)- pretty much everyone they can think of, who all said that there was no reason to reject the application, yet council rejected it on bases "not enough parking space". Though the place had already been operating about 10 years and is next to a bottle shop (for which there apparently is enough parking space).

In one case (in industrial area, where all neighboring businesses gave their approval) it was rejected due a gym at the other end of the building, where apparently adults MIGHT take there kids with them on Saturdays (this was the council's view, not the gym's).
Yet again overruled by court.


So I ask:
If you were planning on opening for example a restaurant, and to get approved you would have to invest money into the property, in addition to renovating it, building kitchen to the required standards, and even when all dots were crossed, would not know whether you can legally open for business anytime within the next (say) five years.
Would you invest your money in that?

I also ask from those of you who are dead set on having these "illegal brothels" to obey the law or be shut down and that these "illegal brothels" should be treated like any other business.
Do you think that they are treated like any other business?
I don't think so.

I also ask:
Would you also expect the councils to obey the law, when doing decisions on planning approvals?
When everything in the application meats the requirements of the law and also the individual council's planning policy requirements and is still rejected and takes (in one of these cases three separate court decisions) up to ten years to get a business running.
Is that according to due process from the councils?

Yes, in each case the councils have had to pay a small penalty when they've lost the case, and they've also spent considerable amount of money in legal proceedings (way more than trying to get the illegal ones closed).

All of this information is public. It's available from the councils' websites as all council meetings and DA's are public records.
Why is SMH not writing about this?

Wow brother Licker !

So much information , very impressive !

Cheers

[jackie8]

Is it 'unlawful' for a massage shop to provide nude happy ending?

[wilisno]

Is it 'unlawful' for a massage shop to provide nude happy ending?
Yes ......

[jackie8]

Yes ......

So a customer is a willing participant in an 'unlawful' act !
Can the customer be charged?

[wilisno]

So a customer is a willing participant in an 'unlawful' act !
Can the customer be charged?
Nobody is going to be charged, punting is legal, as long as the girl is not underaged.

[Licker]

So a customer is a willing participant in an 'unlawful' act !
Can the customer be charged?

Thankfully we are not in Queensland or Victoria.
In those states the customer can be charged.

There are those however, even on this forum, who would like to bring those laws to NSW.
Go figure :question:

[2BOrNot2B]

All councils are corrupt or bent. Developers regularly make "financial contributions" to councils to get their development approved.
The money is often used for completely unrelated council spending - this is the sanctioned or lawful corruption. It is corrupt, because
the development would not ordinarily get approved due to not meeting certain conditions or specifications. It gets approved because
the financial contributions are made. The unsanctioned or unlawful corruption is when a developer gives money or services for the
personal use or gratification of the individual council recipient. If it's not establishment approved, then its "bad" corruption.
If it's establishment approved, then it's "good" corruption. That's the way it is, believe me.

[wilisno]

All councils are corrupt or bent. Developers regularly make "financial contributions" to councils to get their development approved.
The money is often used for completely unrelated council spending - this is the sanctioned or lawful corruption. It is corrupt, because
the development would not ordinarily get approved due to not meeting certain conditions or specifications. It gets approved because
the financial contributions are made. The unsanctioned or unlawful corruption is when a developer gives money or services for the
personal use or gratification of the individual council recipient. If it's not establishment approved, then its "bad" corruption.
If it's establishment approved, then it's "good" corruption. That's the way it is, believe me.
Believe you ??? ;) ;) ;)

[Atomique]

So if a council doesnt approve a brothel license its acting corruptly. And if it approves any other sort of development application its also acting corruptly. And in conclusion, 'all councils are corrupt'

So how's 9th grade treating you kid?


All councils are corrupt or bent. Developers regularly make "financial contributions" to councils to get their development approved.
The money is often used for completely unrelated council spending - this is the sanctioned or lawful corruption. It is corrupt, because
the development would not ordinarily get approved due to not meeting certain conditions or specifications. It gets approved because
the financial contributions are made. The unsanctioned or unlawful corruption is when a developer gives money or services for the
personal use or gratification of the individual council recipient. If it's not establishment approved, then its "bad" corruption.
If it's establishment approved, then it's "good" corruption. That's the way it is, believe me.