Raids, inspections - what, what and how.

[Forward Must Hang]

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[murphy]

Thank you kind sir.
Your previous service to the community continues in your retirement from your work. Can we copy and paste this or bump this thread, into any subsequent thread about raids, to quieten the masses?

Among the many lessons I take away; you arent doing anything wrong if you are dealing with a legally aged woman, dont bring in any ID, (I dont want to be on any police record), and give a different name, if you have done nothing wrong
To protect the massage shop, dont expect massage shops to have condoms

[rooter]

Excellent info.
Very accurate.

[murphy]

Excellent info.
Very accurate.

Pretty much what you were saying Rooter

[Forward Must Hang]

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[murphy]

Lets face it, the risk of you meeting a Policeman in a parlour is probably 1000:1, and you are breaking no law as long as you are not dealing with a minor, its all good

Our main goal as punters is not to get our local nassage shop in trouble. Dont expect them to provide condoms or any other services, as officially as we all know, management dont authorise extra services. Remove any things you bring in with you.

Massage ladies often lock the doors for privacy reasons. Many massage shops have locked doors, this is perfectly legal, so I recommend when you get a massage, ask the masseuse to lock your door with all sessions.

After all, clients get massages in their underwear, or less. I know my sister gets her gear right off, she loves massages. She does not want a male manager of the shop, nor a man in uniform, barging in, thank you.

I certainly reserve the right to not be disturbed. Just the same if the GP is performing a routine check with all my clothes off, checking for skin cancer, I expect the door to be secured. I dont want someone just walking into the wrong room, and this does happen. Imagine a grandma walking in the wrong room while your GP is examining your unclothed body

[SexyBoi]

Thanks bros FMH (and for your service as well), Murphy, Rooter and others!
Truly informative.
Highly appreciated!

[murphy]

Im only recommending punters keep safe and provide themselves with the privacy they are entitled to. I wont expect any massage parlour to have condoms, as this service is not permitted, but I always carry one in my wallet because I go to brothels, again if it falls out or is used I will always pick it up and take it home. It doesnt belong in a nassage shop. No laws are being broken, and I dont want any massage shop to get into trouble.

And if I dont have ID and the Police are asking for my details, I will first ask why they need my details, and the circumstances of the visit. I will calmly say I have never been in the shop before, I have been in the premises for less than 1 hour in my life, and that I have very little to offer. Happy to provide them my details if they insist, as I have not broken any laws. I literally dont appear in the white pages, I have a new address, and they can have my punting phone number

Nothing wrong with having prolapsed lumbosacral discs in your back, that need regular physio and massage

[murphy]

Following on from the "Hornsby shop getting raided" thread and several other threads that pop up about raids, I'd thought I'd provide some facts about raids and inspections.

Councils

Brothels require approval from Council and can only operate in certain areas - some Council's don't even allow them in commercial areas but some do. Massage (i.e. legit remedial) doesn't need approval, it's a commercial use of a commercial shop (unless they do acupuncture which is skin penetration then it needs health licenses).

A lot of "massage" shops set up as massage but do RnT. Any sexual service makes it a brothel so "massage" shops can't do RnT unless they are approved as a brothel by the Council. That's why Council's employ Private Investigators - to get evidence of the "deed being done" because circumstantial evidence such as suggestive ads may not be enough for a prosecution.

Council's may look into that issue if they get complaints or the shop is advertising more than just massage. Normally Council won't care because they have better things to worry about and besides, massage shops operate fairly discreetly and the average passer by wouldn't know or care. Council health inspectors inspect approved premises to make sure condoms are being disposed of properly, the water used for washing towels and sheets is over a certain temperature etc.

Offences of planning and health are civil offences, not criminal. Council's don't need a search warrant to enter - they have powers of entry to a premises under various laws.

Immigration

Immigration attend on the lookout for visa breaches, illegal immigrants etc. Pretty narrow scope. Immigration offences are criminal offences so they need a warrant to enter.

Police

Cops don't raid premises over breaches of approval, or unauthorised development. Cops only care about whether there is a criminal law being broken (Council laws are civil laws, not criminal). So, cops look for underaged workers, drugs being sold etc.

Sometimes, cops, Council and immigration will do joint inspections.

I read that unscrupulous massage operators dob in their successful competitors, just to get them in trouble. Can you tell us if this is true, and how this works?
We discussed undercover Council inspectors. But councils can also have overt operatives with or without Police?
If so, then we all should definitely lock our doors during massage, and all rooms should have tampon disposal units in each room, to throw away any litter
I hate the thought that complaints to council are frivilous actions initiated by less successful businesses who offer the community an inferior service or less skilled ML. I want our best massage shops to succeed, without being hampered by crap competitors.
Your underlining technique is clever, I will use it too now and then

Objective
Lets all protect our local massage shop from getting in trouble, in anyway we can

[liminal]

I read that unscrupulous massage operators dob in their successful competitors, just to get them in trouble. Can you tell us if this is true, and how this works?
We discussed undercover Council inspectors. But councils can also have overt operatives with or without Police?
If so, then we all should definitely lock our doors during massage, and all rooms should have tampon disposal units in each room, to throw away any litter
I hate the thought that complaints to council are frivilous actions initiated by less successful businesses who offer the community an inferior service or less skilled ML. I want our best massage shops to succeed, without being hampered by crap competitors.
Your underlining technique is clever, I will use it too now and then

Objective
Lets all protect our local massage shop from getting in trouble, in anyway we can

I think this is moving away from the OP intention

To provide clear information on the various roles of those involved in a raid

Council

Police

Immigration

and what issues if any for a punter.

so for this to be useful best it not become something else . I think our resident man on the beat , started another thread where you can ask general Q’s

... do people TETTLE TALE 🙄 what do you think

[aussiegaigin]

Massage shops DO need council approval in the form of a DA. This approval will stipulate what alterations can be made to the premises, what facilties must be provided, what services can be provided, maximum staff and customers at any one time, hours of opening, what signage is allowed, etc. The DA is open for public scrutiny and can be rejected if there is excessive valid local objection.

IIRC, police do not need a warrant if they have justifiable suspicions that a crime is being committed at the time of entry.

[aussiegaigin]

Objective
Lets all protect our local massage shop from getting in trouble, in anyway we can
THis includes NOT writing detailed ARs on forums where LE operatives are likely to read them.

[Forward Must Hang]

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[Forward Must Hang]

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[Foxxster]

Question. What happens if you have consumed something there and perhaps appear to be visibly affected?

[Forward Must Hang]

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[murphy]

This is gold .

[DownUnda]

You forgot to mention that they also have power to keep and search for all electronic devices in the premise and of course take number down for further prosecution :)

[Foxxster]

Lot of "ifs" and "variables" there.

If it's Council or Immigration - nothing.

If it's Police, that's different. You're not in a public place, you're on private property. You can be drunk all you want. If you've consumed illicit substances, likely nothing unless you get a bit stroppy in which case you could be arrested for obstructing Police duty. If you're caught with illicit substances on you then you will be arrested for possession. You might have your details taken and be questioned about what you've taken and where you got it from, i.e. did you get it from inside the parlour/brothel.

There is a grey area around whether a search warrant allows an Officer to search a visitor to the premises - technically it does but there is scope for challenge about reasonable grounds to search a person. I'm not a lawyer and I don't want people thinking they can get away with stuff on a technicality. There are good criminal lawyers and equally good prosecutors who will bat you back and forward with their egos like a cat with a mouse. The best advice I can give people is "you know its against the law, don't take the risk". That's me playing mother hen, frankly I don't care what you do but don't come bitchin' to me when you skin your knees and want a band aid. :)

Also, if someone is visibly blotto and the brothel is out in the middle of an industrial area - expect an RBT at each end of the street in about... ooh... 45 seconds.


Thanks for the reply.

I was thinking more along the lines of ,

You are with girl in the room. Girl offers one of other substance say either marijuana or ice.

Let’s first say marijuana. You smoke joint then. Knock knock knock. Police, search warrant. Open the door NOW. You are of course naked so priority is grabbing a towel to cover yourself. Open door. Room smells of marijuana. There may be some left over on the bedside table... Does this give them reason to arrest you. They smell the drug. You probably have red eyes etc so they can say to a judge that you appeared under the influence. If there is any drug there,even if it belongs to the girl, the police do not know whose it is..

The same situation for ice. But they find ice pipe and probably a little left over ice.

Can they arrest you. If so can they force a urine and or blood test?

[Forward Must Hang]

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[murphy]

Thanks for the reply.

I was thinking more along the lines of ,

You are with girl in the room. Girl offers one of other substance say either marijuana or ice.

This is the slippery slope. When was it acceptable for WL to be using drugs on the premises, and sharing it on the premises?
A really stupid idea
Drug taking onsite has to be wiped out by brothels now, before it goes the next step which is an organised crime crackdown with media feasting on the headlines for years

It doesnt matter who uses what drug where. What is at stake is having a gently regulated industry, or the governments imposing a very heavy regulated one

[Popeye000]

Thanks Forward Must Hang and all those who contributed for this insightful information. If anything it puts punters at ease should anyone come knocking.

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk

[Ak.47]

Forward must hang is a legend. Cheers mate!!

[Niceguy11]

Can some raids on shops be related to organised crime syndicates ? I mean the girls are not involved but the owners are tied up with criminal figures ?

[Coop]

Thanks Forward, very informative.

[Forward Must Hang]

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[AHLUNGOR]

It was a drug raids operations, got nothing to do with the shop being a massage parlour !!

Articles in the Telegraph today, the 45 yr old mamasan owns 4 brothels !! While the police raided the shop, simultaneously they also raided her home !

That's a $2.5M mansion just 5 min away from the Hornsby shop. I guess the mansion was paid for by the drug money rather than profits from running those FS brothels ! What do you guys think ??

[Foxxster]

It was a drug raids operations, got nothing to do with the shop being a massage parlour !!

Articles in the Telegraph today, the 45 yr old mamasan owns 4 brothels !! While the police raided the shop, simultaneously they also raided her home !

That's a $2.5M mansion just 5 min away from the Hornsby shop. I guess the mansion was paid for by the drug money rather than profits from running those FS brothels ! What do you guys think ??


Well I imagine one is at least as profitable as the other , probably more so. Did it mention which other brothels she owned?

Yes that house is in Highlands Avenue Wahroonga. Looks pretty nice. Crime paid .. until she got caught. And while there is a presumption of innocence, it would appear that she at least is looking at a significant jail term. And possibly her 28 year old employee who was in court today.

Which raises the question, what happens to the 4 brothels she owns. I would think council might object to someone with a conviction for a serious offence or offences carried out in one of those brothels actually having a licence to operate one. Assuming she is convicted. And it surely ain’t looking good.

Did it say if she got bail?

[murphy]

Its amazing that people still think they can get away with selling drugs. Desperation clouds judgement. Anyone distributing or selling lethal illicit drugs should be given massive lengthy jail sentences, to be a message to the community

For those who have lost the children to the drug scourge, nothing less than the death penalty is sufficient justice

[CountryPunter]

News from Sth Aust yesterday reported that a Chinese guy living in Aust on a refugee visa appeared in court charged with money laundering.

He had apparently been involved in running a nationwide prostitution ring.

More unwanted publicity. The greed and risk taking of a few individuals is just going to make it tougher for the operators that are trying to run their businesses without attracting unwanted attention.

[murphy]

Agreed CountryPunter. As punters we can play a small part. Call out to the management any ML/WL bringing in drugs to your room. Do whatever you feel like during the session, you are breaking no law. But need to let boss know on the way out. Maybe they are involved too. But you are warning them that its not good for business

If you prefer your pasttime of punting to be badly impacted by negative press, frightened Councils, and a NSW Premier under pressure to crack down on brothels and massage shops, then turn a blind eye. The standard you walk past is the standard you accept

[liminal]

FFS

let’s not wallow and toss n turn needlessly

Are you seeing the tactical guys donning their belts and kicking in doors

Maybe let’s instigate a punt pride day ???

Anyone interested

[murphy]

FFS

let’s not wallow and toss n turn needlessly

Are you seeing the tactical guys donning their belts and kicking in doors



No. Im seeing bad publicity kicking down the quiet little scene we used to have in punting. Reputation doesnt mean much to some

[liminal]

No. Im seeing bad publicity kicking down the quiet little scene we used to have in punting. Reputation doesnt mean much to some

Dude

a.this thread doesn’t need maudlin and

B. personally I think you are chewing your bottom lip to readily . No offence intended

P.S youre Not interested in outing yourself and supporting punt pride ?

[murphy]

Dude

a.this thread doesn’t need maudlin and

B. personally I think you are chewing your bottom lip to readily . No offence intended

P.S youre Not interested in outing yourself and supporting punt pride ?

Im with you as soon as I understand what you are on about

[liminal]

Im with you as soon as I understand what you are on about

As you ask ...
I can only refer you to your own posts

As for punt pride and as you seem so outraged ... come March with
Me on parliament , I’ll bringthe printed bonds tee for you.. what size ?

[Forward Must Hang]

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[cuteguy]

Can some raids on shops be related to organised crime syndicates ? I mean the girls are not involved but the owners are tied up with criminal figures ?

Some girls do say that some customers bring drugs to the shops to take with the girls. If the girl is smart she won't participate with the customers. As to whether the customers do this in order to get the girl addicted and then have them as one of their clients is a possibility. In the end, what happens behind closed rooms is sometimes out of the hands of brothel owners.

[trampslikeus55]

Thanks FMH for all the sound advice. I will add one point after my recent dealings with the law. My legal advice explained that you don't (shouldn't) say anything at all to the police without your solicitor with you. You may be derided or hassled but in the long run, if you are an innocent person, you will be ok. And if your not, then get the solicitor fast. In the world we are dealing in the Police are only really interested in criminal activity. They don't get paid more for being nice. They get promoted because they have done something good. Drugs busts are headlines. And in the end the majority of the population consider drugs a scourge on society and are happy for the police to catch drug dealers, suppliers and manufacturers. The problem I experienced was that the truth got lost in the bravado of the arrests. Explanation and interpretation got lost in the language barrier that exists in all our favourite shops. And most WL have a real and genuine fear of police (chinese in particular) and being deported for visa violations. The police will use this fear to their advantage and bingo. You said, they said and before you know anything, someone is under the bus. It is not a crime to visit or partake in a legal brothel. In fact it makes perfect sense if sex is what you chose. Just stay within the law of the day and all will be ok.

[trampslikeus55]

Just to add something further about the bust at 142 Hornsby. The reports all stated "after a 6 months investigation " FMH may be able to add more again, but I would guess that includes surveillance, maybe phone tapping. After the bust I am sure that all phone records and any documents found would be being examined for the purpose of building the case against the accused. Is there a possibility that innocent punters could be asked questions about what they know, saw or heard simple because they went to 142 during this time. I am not one (never been) but can the police ask you questions because of your association with the shop?

[liminal]

Just to add something further about the bust at 142 Hornsby. The reports all stated "after a 6 months investigation " FMH may be able to add more again, but I would guess that includes surveillance, maybe phone tapping. After the bust I am sure that all phone records and any documents found would be being examined for the purpose of building the case against the accused. Is there a possibility that innocent punters could be asked questions about what they know, saw or heard simple because they went to 142 during this time. I am not one (never been) but can the police ask you questions because of your association with the shop?

I’m neither a lawyer priest. Nor cop

I think the answer is yes ... IF .. If you are deemed relevant to the investigation

Though if you sent a text on your punt phone enquiring about your fave and was she available for a pay day BJ , then I think not

[murphy]

Thanks FMH for all the sound advice. I will add one point after my recent dealings with the law. My legal advice explained that you don't (shouldn't) say anything at all to the police without your solicitor with you. You may be derided or hassled but in the long run, if you are an innocent person, you will be ok. And if your not, then get the solicitor fast. In the world we are dealing in the Police are only really interested in criminal activity

Like Trumps solicitor, your solicitor would need to be able to pick up the phone during punting hours, and you are cool with telling him you are in a brothel. An at call solicitor. Not sure if there are solicitors that specialise in after hours punting escapades

[CunningLinguist]

. I will add one point after my recent dealings with the law. My legal advice explained that you don't (shouldn't) say anything at all to the police without your solicitor with you. .

In NSW at least if your solicitor is present then you can not remain silent, you must answer. If your solicitor is not present then you have the right to remain silent. If you are innocent it may not mean much if they need a scapegoat. Depending on the circumstances the less you say to cops the better since it may come back to bite you.

[Foxxster]

Just to add something further about the bust at 142 Hornsby. The reports all stated "after a 6 months investigation " FMH may be able to add more again, but I would guess that includes surveillance, maybe phone tapping. After the bust I am sure that all phone records and any documents found would be being examined for the purpose of building the case against the accused. Is there a possibility that innocent punters could be asked questions about what they know, saw or heard simple because they went to 142 during this time. I am not one (never been) but can the police ask you questions because of your association with the shop?


I would really doubt this. As you say they would have surveillance from 6 months, possibly phone tap recordings. They would have observed any dealers coming and going and no doubt followed them back to their source. They have enough evidence it seems from what they found on the day and presumably from the investigation to form a case against the people they want at the brothel which was predominantly the owner. If they did not have substantial evidence both she and her male employee would have been granted bail and not kept locked up. That tells you all you need to know.

So if you were an occasional or even regular punter there I would not be concerned.

Also , stating what we all know I guess, they are still closed and there is no indicative opening date.

[aussiegaigin]

Anyone going to to that shop could be considered a potential buyer of drugs, and your intentions could be questioned.

If your wife found out you got sprung, what would you tell her? I was there for a fuck, or I was there picking us up some weed for tonight?

[murphy]

Anyone going to to that shop could be considered a potential buyer of drugs, and your intentions could be questioned.

If your wife found out you got sprung, what would you tell her? I was there for a fuck, or I was there picking us up some weed for tonight?

Weeds pretty passe. Its cheap and is a depressant not an excitant. Surely the only deal in town in selling cocaine or ice. Thats what has street cred. These are the main party drugs

Cocaine fries your nasal septum and triggers blocked arteries and heart attacks. Ive seen that happen.

Ice totally fries your brain, damaging your higher executive function and leaves you a vegetable

Specialists in the field know that drug decriminalisation is a stupid idea for these two most popular drugs

You can tell your wife you f-ked up your life as you are visited in the psychiatry unit, with the fan photo of Ben Cousins on your slimy wall. Your wife can tell your kids and family you are no long able to hold down a job and that you are a caved in f--k up loser

[eltran]

In NSW at least if your solicitor is present then you can not remain silent, you must answer. If your solicitor is not present then you have the right to remain silent. If you are innocent it may not mean much if they need a scapegoat. Depending on the circumstances the less you say to cops the better since it may come back to bite you.
This is not quite correct.

You don't lose the right to remain silent, if a lawyer is there or not.

What changes is that if a lawyer shows up, the cops can tell you that if you don't say something right then and you later use at that at the trial to attempt to defend yourself, the Government/Prosecutor can tell a jury at an eventual trial that they are allowed to make a negative view of your failure to tell the cops in their interviews about whatever it was. In effect they get to tell the Jury that you're guilty until proven innocent than the other way around.

If your lawyer doesn't show up, then the cops can't do that and you can simply shut up and later on you can tell the cops or not, and then use it in a trial without the punishment of the Prosecutor telling the jury that you're an evil bad man for not telling the cops straight away about your defence.

The result is that lawyers no longer show up at the cop shop, and instead you wait until the cops release you to talk to the lawyer.

Another related law is that the Government changed so that you have to tell the cops any alibi you've given them over a month before the trial starts. Which means the cops can spend a month and a half picking things apart to make you look bad at the trial when you would otherwise have your lawyer show up at the trial and the first thing out of his mouth was "my client was at x location at x time, he is innocent".

At the end of the day, no matter what the cops say, if you're hauled into an interview room or worse, charged, then SHUT THE FUCK UP until they release you, then let a lawyer deal with everything. Cops do not give a shit about the truth of what you tell them once they target you, all they care about is putting you in prison.

Nothing you can say in an interview will help you avoid prison but anything you do say may end up putting you in one.

[Forward Must Hang]

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[CunningLinguist]

...
Nothing you can say in an interview will help you avoid prison but anything you do say may end up putting you in one.

Thanks for the clarification, I really like this last bit !

Some info: https://nswcourts.com.au/articles/police-cannot-persist-with-questioning-after-right-to-silence-is-exercised/

[murphy]

Simple rule: As long as punters arent ringing or texting ahead to book a WL and some drugs, they have nothing to fear. If they are in phone contact with dealers, they are implicated in the drug syndicates crimes

Police investigators love getting dealers contacts as a means of gauging the scale of thr business

[liminal]

Simple rule: As long as punters arent ringing or texting ahead to book a WL and some drugs, they have nothing to fear. If they are in phone contact with dealers, they are implicated in the drug syndicates crimes

Police investigators love getting dealers contacts as a means of gauging the scale of thr business

Maybe the rule Murphy is don’t loan me your phone when we go punting

[murphy]

Maybe the rule Murphy is don’t loan me your phone when we go punting

You are welcome to use my punting phone brother. No drug action on there. Just nice feeds from a few brothels and their daily rosters you might enjoy. I have a Line feed from one massage place with many sexy young women. Great eye candy