The referendum, yes or no?

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Originally Posted by Ziggurat

It's the hypocrisy of it. It isn't a welcome, it's a political point being made every time.

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It was a ceremony done long before any settlers got here, the Welcome Ceremony wasn’t a political statement 1000’s of years ago. Again, countries all over the world have their own culture, ceremonies, dance, language etc.. that is celebrated. As I stated before, most people are fascinated and humbled by the Haka. I loved seeing the Fiuji singing their the “Mosu Masu” at the league World Cup, the hymn separates them from all other nations… Divisive? Maybe, if you have an inferiority complex.

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Originally Posted by Ziggurat

It's a welcome wrapped up in a sly dig at the people involuntarily subject to it.

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The only reason why it may be seen as a “sly dig” is because it may remind them of the atrocities of the invasion, but the ceremony itself was practiced before then as a sign of respect and humility. I personally believe it is been done in good faith, but I also understand it in it's full context and complexities.

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Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Hypocritical passive aggression designed to make you feel less Australian - if not completely Stateless. Or more "British" as you say. Some "welcome." I don't feel British at all. If I want to go back 50,000 years too nor do I feel particularly Cro-Magnon either. :miao:

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My comment was to someone referring to how his great, great, grandparents were born here so by virtue that makes him more Australian to others, otherwise, he would have just said “I’m born here, so I’m Australian”, so by his own definition he is 0.0003 as Australian as Indigenous Australians i.e "less Australian". I was also pointing out the fact that the person doing the ceremony, has connections to Australian land spanning 65,000 years before his great, great, great parents got here. And the fact he felt the ceremony was racist or he was being excluded seemed very strange to me.

Ps, you may not feel particularly Cro-Magnon but I’m sure there are many in your personal life who would disagree. :grimace:

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Originally Posted by Jamez11

...I also understand it [the welcome to the country] in it's full context and complexities.

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You make my own point. If only the rest of the Voice debate could go so smoothly. The ceremony is solely political. It is either a welcome or it is political but it can't be both. Enact it at Speaker's Corner in the Domain every Sunday then and piss it off from the football or wherever where we don't want politics shoved down our throats. Whatever commonplace polite niceties were performed for thousands of years - which were only like visa entries that all countries have - they bear no relation or relevance to the 30 year old dressed up version invented by Ernie Dingo. It has become a sly dig instead.

Apart from that Jamez 11 - and I'm not pissing in your pocket - I do like your reasoned discussion. :D
Ps. I haven't started on smoking ceremonies yet. :shout:

I consider the political benefits/damage some parties might be able to reap from the Yes or No vote going through to be collateral. It's a necessary evil and merely a side effect of the real purpose of the Voice (or no Voice if you don't want it). Don't let that side-show distract you from doing what you think is the right thing.

If you vote No to spite Albo et al, you're a fool. If you vote Yes to spite Dutton et al, you're a fool.

The NO vote will win and that's really sad.
Us Aussies are better than that.
We are not perfect, but we are good people.
A really sad day for Australia if NO wins.

The following information will soon be recorded history, not an opinion

The effective 'Vote No if you don't know/understand' community message will defeat this referendum. Sorry

Everyone knows, you don't sign a contract without first reading the fine print

The PM really needed to get this right by giving the public clearer information. The Australian Electoral Commission AEC reports running this referendum will cost taxpayers $450 million

Here is a Voice from the disadvantaged and homeless throughout Australia:
What a f- waste of money

How many black and white and other homeless could have an emergency bed and a meal for how many years with that money? $450 million. Shame

The PM should have legislated the Voice first, or provided a clear model and structure of the Voice

Australians are very capable voters, and would definitely vote YES if they saw how this Voice committee actually works
Many past committees drained taxpayers funds into bureaucrats pockets, so no actual progress

The PM, has proven himself a poor master of details in general

He famously didn't know the actual interest rate before a major election, (he avoided high profile technical roles such as opposition treasurer during his career), and admits he didn't read the full Uluru paperwork

I hope the No vote wins as the majority of Australians are not racist and want everyone to be treated equally. The way way Aldo has sold the Yes vote has divided the country.

This is a good read
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-...tory/102941070

Whatever your views on the idea of the Voice, it is not just the ugly racism exposed by the debate about it — which has seen Indigenous people on both sides of the debate subjected to abuse and death threats — it is the spectacular failure, hypocrisy and opportunism that has been on display on occasions among our politicians that has already marked it as another ugly chapter in our history.

The willingness of some sections of the media to perpetuate misinformation, and of other sections of the media to get lost in attempts at false balance, has made nigh on impossible a reasonably rational debate about what a permanent advisory body to the parliament and executive, whose actual remit would be defined and controlled by the parliament, might mean both symbolically and practically to Indigenous Australians.

Is it $55 bucks for not voting?

Yes it is GFM, I haven't voted in years but I'm voting in this one

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Originally Posted by rooter

The NO vote will win and that's really sad.
Us Aussies are better than that.
We are not perfect, but we are good people.
A really sad day for Australia if NO wins.

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Don't be sad, because two out of three ain't bad..

It's just sense. People are objecting to the utter permanence of it in the constitiution. It's a total overreach. Trial it out first and if it lives up to all the claims yes makes for it everyone in this discussion will be celebrating. If it turns out to be yet another dud expensive body like all the other bodies we aren't stuck with it for eternity. It's mere commonsense. :grimace2:

If it was legislation, the libs would turn it over when next in power. This serves no purpose for them and their mates like Palmer and Hancock who want to use their land without proper compensation or consultation. I remember a few years ago Rio Tinto knowingly desecrated sensitive ceremonial locations.

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Originally Posted by dotcumdotinyou

Yes it is GFM, I haven't voted in years but I'm voting in this one

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So you don’’t vote but you will this time out of spite.

The last referendum in 1999 was No to Australia becoming a republic and this has festered; if No succeeds, status quo remains and the Gap won't ever get closed.

There has to be a better way and this might be a shot at it

There's a common theme to the No voters if Abbott, Bolt, Credlin, Dutton, Hanson, Howard, Palmer, Rinehart and their ilk are in their camp

Conspiracy theories and disinformation spread like wildfire, see this
https://twitter.com/i/status/1709855035184627754

Today, Albo ruled out legislating the Voice if No succeeds as it is the will of the people, he said

As Paul Kelly sang, if not now when, if not us, who..

Well, the people are voting on two things - the voice, and it's constitutional permanence. I hope someone asks Albo how he can possibly know which of the two things they have rejected.

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Originally Posted by ReginaldBubbles

So you don’’t vote but you will this time out of spite.

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Thats $55 towards a punt after he votes.. why waste it by not voting?!

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Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Well, the people are voting on two things - the voice, and it's constitutional permanence. I hope someone asks Albo how he can possibly know which of the two things they have rejected.

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I feel like Australia has been influenced by the US a bit with their fanatical obsession with the idea that the constitution is this sacred document written by our founding fathers that shouldn't be changed (which in the US is basically to defend the second amendment but not so much the others) but it's actually a flexible document that needs to be able to be changed with the times.
In 1901 the Australian people accepted a whole constitution that simply listed what the government could make laws about. There was no detail what those laws would be and we're all fine because the detail can change in the parliament, but the fact that that ability is permanent whichever government is in is important.
It's important that there's always an Aboriginal voice to parliament even if the National Party somehow becomes the government and decides the voice should be one person who makes representations once every ten years. And it's not going to be a body that distributes funds or makes any financial decisions. So many furphys and straw man arguments in this debate for political gain, including the argument that we don't know the detail when it's actually really simple and harmless. There's nothing to lose. And it's not even about race.

Another 5 days and this thread can finally die.. well, it should finally die.

Just as any hope of a decent future will die with it...

I hope all you "No" voters have taken the time to read the actual proposed changes as well as the Uluru Statement from the Heart....

Dutton and his rich cronies have pulled a fast one here.. I hope he gets what he deserves politically.

Voting "Yes" is the only sane, logical thing to do... ONCE YOU HAVE ALL THE INFORMATION.

Bur then, this is a punting forum....

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

Maybe yes in the future after a thorough debate and mutual agreement on all sides. Right now it is not the time, now it will actually divide the society even more and create more conflict than benefits. This is not a well thought out decision. I will not support it.

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Originally Posted by dotcumdotinyou

Yes it is GFM, I haven't voted in years but I'm voting in this one

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Asking for a relo who’s stuck OS at the moment, that’s all. Postal voting is such a pain in the arse!

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Originally Posted by GoldfishMan

Asking for a relo who’s stuck OS at the moment, that’s all. Postal voting is such a pain in the arse!

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GoldfishMan,
Fyi, there is a postal voting deadline that AEC needs to receive the postal votes by, 13 days after voting day.
https://www.aec.gov.au/referendums/v...as-voting.html

Note this:

Unable to vote
Voting in a referendum is not compulsory for Australians overseas. If you are unable to vote you should complete and submit an overseas notification form.

If you do not inform the AEC, we will write to you asking you to explain why you did not vote.