Vaxveria: AstraZeneca's vaccine against COVID-19

[GoldfishMan]

Starting this thread because I think it is time we focussed on this vaccine on its own instead of just talking about it in a thread dedicated to the alternative vaccine from Pfizer. Considering the huge supply issues with Comirnaty (Pfizer vaccine), Vaxzevria might very well be our only hope of getting on top of this virus without sacrificing the entire Australian economy!

One thing I really do not understand about the authorities and the medical fraternity is, why is it that they are not doing anything "material" to help reduce the risk of taking this vaccine? Surely that would be the natural course of action now that the risk is known? Thrombosis (blood-clotting in the veins) is actually no laughing matter and the public knows how bad it is. Back in the good times we've all been warned by the same medical fraternity of the dangers of deep-vein thrombosis (DVT) in long haul flights and been told to do everything we can to avoid getting the problem (get up from your seat regularly, stretch your legs, wear tight socks, etc.). Now they're telling us, if you take this vaccine there's a chance that you'll get thrombosis, but it's OK because there's not much chance you'll get it? What the heck...?

If that's not bad enough, this next part really gives me the shits. I understand from an article written by a Dr. in the news, that "once you get the thrombosis problem, it can be fixed if you get the right medication at an early stage". I mean, what in the f-ing hell, why don't they just give you medication to prevent blood-clots when you take the vaccine if they know it might happen and if it does happen, that you might die from it? Can you die from taking blood-thinners unnecessarily but in reasonable doses? Or is that doctor telling porkies and you're basically done if you do get the thrombosis problem?

What I'm getting at is, I really cannot understand why the people calling the shots are not going out of their way to do REAL things to alleviate the risks associated with taking the AZ vaccine, or at least give people more confidence in the vaccine. Instead, they keep running all these media campaigns to instil fear into people to accept the risk as what it is. They're even pulling out the conspiracy card saying that the EU bloc went out of their way to sabotage the AZ vaccine with the bad publicity because of Brexit..... think about how ridiculous that sounds. They probably also wear tin-foil hats.

[tan30]

Why would the govt run media campaigns to scare people in taking the AZ vaccine? News articles are only giving the facts, and to be honest it's not doing a good job since it's about someone DYING from the vaccine (earlier on they gave no medical history of older patients dying)

Take the AZ vaccine if that's all you can get. The risk of having it vs the risk of catching delta is much much lower.

Just remember that viral load in an infected person (who isn't vaccinated) is the same as the viral load of an infected person who IS vaccinated. Atleast with blood clots you can get treatment for it, whereas catching delta is a more of a danger to yourself and to loved ones who you see.

I literally don't understand the fear surrounding blood clots with AZ, heck there's an inherent risk of getting rabies from a rabies vaccination, though you're encouraged to take it if you go to an area that has cases of rabies.

Delta is different, you need only one cough or one instance to get it.

[GoldfishMan]

Why would the govt run media campaigns to scare people in taking the AZ vaccine? News articles are only giving the facts, and to be honest it's not doing a good job since it's about someone DYING from the vaccine (earlier on they gave no medical history of older patients dying)

Take the AZ vaccine if that's all you can get. The risk of having it vs the risk of catching delta is much much lower.

Just remember that viral load in an infected person (who isn't vaccinated) is the same as the viral load of an infected person who IS vaccinated. Atleast with blood clots you can get treatment for it, whereas catching delta is a more of a danger to yourself and to loved ones who you see.

I literally don't understand the fear surrounding blood clots with AZ, heck there's an inherent risk of getting rabies from a rabies vaccination, though you're encouraged to take it if you go to an area that has cases of rabies.

Delta is different, you need only one cough or one instance to get it.

No bro, you missed my point. It's not about how "unlikely" it is to get the thrombosis. That's what everyone who wants people to take AZ have been saying. What I'm saying is just waving it off as "unlikely" is not all they can do, is it? If they genuinely have a desire to get more people to take it up, the best possible way to do that is to show some effort in trying to mitigate the risk, not just telling people off that it's "not likely" to happen. There must be a way they can help mitigate the risk if they can cure it when you get it.

Did you take the AZ Vax, btw?

[GoldfishMan]

Did a bit more digging, here's the advisory from the Gov:
https://www.health.gov.au/initiative...zeneca-vaccine
No evidence.... That's a no brainer when the advice is not to take it!

[TangoEcho]

It's cause of the side effects. It's why we don't take blood thinners to prevent strokes that are caused by clots.

Blood thinners prevent clotting which is a natural way to stop bleeding. If you take it for when your doctor tells you to e.g. a stroke, you do have to change your lifestyle to prevent many things that could cause bleeding.

[tan30]

No bro, you missed my point. It's not about how "unlikely" it is to get the thrombosis. That's what everyone who wants people to take AZ have been saying. What I'm saying is just waving it off as "unlikely" is not all they can do, is it? If they genuinely have a desire to get more people to take it up, the best possible way to do that is to show some effort in trying to mitigate the risk, not just telling people off that it's "not likely" to happen. There must be a way they can help mitigate the risk if they can cure it when you get it.

Did you take the AZ Vax, btw?

Thankfully I was able to get Pfizer, as I'm under 40 just before lockdown started. Westmead fucked up and it seems anyone who pressed 'general population' was given an appointment.

As for mitigating the risk, how do you mitigate it? What you can do is to be careful about how you're feeling post injection, i.e. if you end up getting headaches, have numbness etc to get medical attention. I'm sure this has been covered during the daily interviews, but not covered by the media when they nitpick the premiers words. Don't take this as me being an apologist for the premier either.

The poster above already outlines that taking blood thinners shouldn't be a person's go to once you get the first/second jab.

[GoldfishMan]

That's not true. Low dose aspirin is commonly prescribed as a stroke prevention method. Aspirin thins the blood and therefore helps prevent strokes.

If they can prescribe that for strokes why don't they do it for this Vax? Plus, the Vax has already been out for what, close to a year now. The side effect has been known for months. Yet they haven't done any research into using these known methods of mitigation. What gives? Is everyone just shocked into inaction by the ferocity of the virus? They need to get off their arses and do something productive about it, not just sitting there and saying "this is all we got, you gotta take your chances".

[One23Four]

Bro Goldfishman seems to be an Asian, so the South Korea experience and now the Taiwan experience could be useful to him. I might be wrong but the minimal risk of blood clotting for AZ seems to be a little bit higher for Caucasian than Asian based on the South Korean and now the Taiwanese experience.

South Korea is I believe the first Asian country which very early widely administers AZ to its residents and a number of young medical staff aged between 20 to 40 did suffer the blood clots problem with a very few number of them died (mostly female) as a result, they then restricted the use of AZ to people aged 30 and above. Having used all of its AZ stock and with plenty of supply of Pfizer already in stock and on the way, the South Korean Govt has changed the use of AZ to people over 50. There is no choice of vaccines in South Korea.

For Taiwan, most of the people there are taking AZ as there is very limited supply of Moderna and Pfizer and there is no older people suffering from the blood clot problem leading to deaths. They have nearly exhausted all their AZ now and awaiting supply. Taiwan is also developing their own vaccines like the South Korean though won’t be available at least at the end of the year.

The number of blood clots cases in Australia appear to be higher than the Asian countries like South Korea and Taiwan and perhaps Asian genes make them a little bit less vulnerable to the blood clots side effects than their western counterparts though it is my observations only not scientifically supported. Even so, the chance of blood clotting problem based on the Australian and British experience so far is only 1 in 100,000 and causing death only 1 in 250,000.

It seems Asian male over 50 years old is very safe to take AZ. The 12-week apart between doses is a disincentive but now in NSW it has reduced to 4 weeks. Also it is likely that Australia will follow the British experience of supplementing AZ recipient with a booster of Pfizer when the supply of Pfizer later in the year is greatly increased.

If you want to remain active interacting with others in the next few months, it is sensible to get vaccinated with AZ ASAP to protect yourself and those you interact with.

All depends on the vaccination rate now as to when the shops will be allowed to reopen.

[GoldfishMan]

That's still leaving it to chance bro, even if you bring in the genetics argument. Still a roll of the dice, maybe you'll get it maybe you won't. Tell that to someone who's got 3 dependents and he's the only breadwinner.
With all the resources available and all the medical brilliance they have at their disposal, surely they can do something about it to improve the situation with AZ. I just can't understand the inaction on it that's all. I mean if I was running AZ and I was sincere in trying to get more people to take it up, I would do something about it and let people know I'm working on it at least. But no, all we've had is finger pointing and crying over spilt milk so far!

[adahar]

One123Four: The number of blood clots cases in Australia appear to be higher than the Asian countries like South Korea and Taiwan and perhaps Asian genes make them a little bit less vulnerable to the blood clots side effects than their western counterparts though it is my observations only not scientifically supported. Even so, the chance of blood clotting problem based on the Australian and British experience so far is only 1 in 100,000 and causing death only 1 in 250,000.

As at 5/8/21 the stats for Australia are:-

Age 30-39, 1 death, 1:801595
Age 40-49, 3 deaths, 1:482024
Age 50-59, 1 death, 1:1709404
Age 70-79, 1 death, 1:1503212

The most recent death was a woman aged 34.

[MisterWhippy]

As at 5/8/21 the stats for Australia are:-

Age 30-39, 1 death, 1:801595
Age 40-49, 3 deaths, 1:482024
Age 50-59, 1 death, 1:1709404
Age 70-79, 1 death, 1:1503212

The most recent death was a woman aged 34.

adahar's info puts it in perspective.

Compare with COVID, where we're seeing hundred of cases a day and a few deaths PER DAY -- astronomically higher than the risk of AZ, with millions of shots delivered.

Don't worry, just go out and get the shot you can get!

[studsg]

I do support Bro Goldfishman point. Rather than just trying to sell to people the risk calculations between getting blood clots and dying vs getting covid and dying. What are the people in charge doing about reducing the possibility of developing blood clots from the Astra jab ?

In the UK up to June 389 cases of blood clots with 68 deaths. Number don't mean squat when you are telling someone. Hey you know you MIGHT die from this jab but it's just a 1 in a 100000 chance. People's question is what if I'm the 1 ?

WHO report on this does suggest that countries should explore the use of anti-coagulants as a possible measure.

https://www.who.int/news/item/16-04-...4aAh8dEALw_wcB

[adahar]

UK figures:

Cumulative total of vaccines administered 8/12/20 to 31/5/21 = 54,649,752 (source: NHS monthly report)

Total of fatal suspected thrombo-embolic events with concurrent thrombocytopenia up to 21/7/21 = 73 (source: NHS Yellow Card Report summary)

There were 411 events across all ages with 51 deaths occurring aged 59 or lower (likely the reason for the ATAGI advice re age). If you like you can say the chance of death with an event is 1:5.6 but this is a rubbish stat as there might be multiple variables and underlying factors.

Using a simplistic calculation of deaths compared to vaccinations results in a figure of 1:748,626. Not very illuminating considering the vast number of variables at play but at least it's not low.

Of course, all this talk of comparing doses to deaths might be useful in visualising the risk but it may be that the individual circumstances will be influenced by the underlying health conditions and physiology of the patient. Some people might be vastly more at risk which would change those odds drastically so relying on them alone is not a good punt.

The constant advice to consult with your GP. Maybe a lot of younger people don't have a regular GP, it's more likely if you're older. In this case the ATAGI advice is what it is.

Loads more info info here:-

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...card-reporting

[Markin]

I don't take unnecessary risks. For example, I use public transport almost always partly because it is much safer than driving. I am fully vaccinated with AZ, my partner is also and my son has had one AZ shot so far. The risk of dying from clotting is extremely low, basically negligible. The risk of delayed vaccination is far worse with many associated negative effects (e.g. greatly extended lockdowns).

There are 3 million AZ doses sitting idle with 1 million a week being produced in Australia. Given the situation we are in, especially in Sydney, every single adult should seek out the AZ vaccine. For their own health but also so we can get out of this damn lockdown ASAP.

It's also much more convenient to get most of the time. I got it from my local GP the same day that I called them for both shots.

[studsg]

When a perfectly healthy person goes to ask his GP about vaccine advice. All the GP can say is to repeat the statistics to encourage them to take it. The GP cannot predict if the person will develop blood clots.

It's more a psychological thing that a doctor you are familiar with gives you words of encouragement.

Btw, I've already had my 2 shots of Pfizer in June. So not against vaccines, but want to see more being done to improve take up rate by reducing side effects.

[Markin]

fun fact: if you're in sydney you can just mosey over to a walk in astrazeneca clinic and get vaccinated on the spot. you can do that. it's legal.

https://twitter.com/CaseyBriggs/stat...80193481429000

[Johnisfun1969]

I think media is partly to blame for this. They have been sensationalising the news since covid started. Yes there job is to keep the government as well as the pharmaceutical companies also honest but it has not helped in reducing the fear of vaccine. As I understand everything in life has risk. The moment you step outside your house the risk increases. One should choose the option which is less risky. For me getting the AZ shot reduced my risk. Being over 50 I could have taken the vaccine in March or April but choose not to take it as Sydney did not have any cases. But with the delta variant decided to get vaccinated. By mid June the gov had changed the advice and I could get Pfizer also. But I had to wait till Sep for my dose while AZ was available right away. So after looking at the risks I decided to get AZ. I will get my second dose next week. My suggestion consult your doctor and get the jab.

Meanwhile if someone is interested in the likelihood of dying from other causes this is interesting read, not sure how true it is.

https://robertroybritt.medium.com/od...t-cc761901565b

[dotcumdotinyou]

I recall many years ago when DVT hit the news big time the advice to people taking long haul flights was to wear compression socks, get up and walk around to get the blood flowing and (as goldfish first stated) take an asprin as you board the plane.
When I got the 1st AZ shot last month my doctor told me to watch for symptoms (numbness, severe headaches) around day 3 as evidence showed this was the time it took to develop.
What I can't understand and has goldfish has been tryin to explain is why don't they tell people "GET THE AZ SHOT AND POP AN ASPRIN ON DAYS 1 AND 2"

[Markin]

AZ is safer than taking aspirin.

Around 11 per cent of older Australians take daily aspirin to help prevent stroke and heart attack, but statistically, aspirin is two hundred times more dangerous than AstraZeneca – resulting in around one death per 10,000 people.

https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/artic...taking-aspirin

Get the shot people so we get out of this damn lockdown!

[vitrium]

The Gov made a big mistake going back on their initial advice about the AZ vaccine. Their initial communications about the side effects scared thousands of people away.

I spoke to my GP about it. The risks are so small that there's hundreds of other things you do in a year that have a higher chance of killing you.

At this point it's stupid to not get AZ. And the Gov royally f*cked up by inadvently scaring people away from it.

Also the efficacy of AZ is higher than what was initially reported. New research is showing it at about 92% from the second shot, which is only slightly behind pfizer's 95%.

Just roll it out to everyone.