The referendum, yes or no?

[Ziggurat]

Just watching the referendum road trip now. Mansell, Mayo and Burney are on it. Days out and it isn't a discussion they are having it is a post mortem.. Looks like they've given up.

[Double_Adapter]

Regardless of whether you support/believe the Out of Africa theory or the multiregional theory Aboriginals, Denisovans, Neanderthals, Papuans and all other known races originated from Africa eons ago. As nomads they wondered, travelled, migrated, squattered, and invaded other continents, regions, lands and peoples. It's true that aborigines are the oldest known civilisation on earth but at 65,000 yrs that is relatively embryotic when compared to the age of earth (at 4.6 billion years) or the age of the skeletal remains of Ardi at 4.4 million yrs or Lucy at 3.2 million yrs.

So whether you believe in creation (ie some higher power created all this shit) or evolution (everything emanated and evolved from some random cosmic big bang) at the end of the day the planet belongs to nobody and we are simply nomadic squatters. We come into this world alone, naked, and with fuck all, and we leave it the same fucken way. Nothing we say, do or argue about, can change that....it is what it is!
People, nations, cultures, languages, powers, religions, etc will come and go but earth will continue to remain terra firma (ie unless some fucked up group of deranged individuals decide to randomly press the red button - and we're not far from that scenario)

So arguing about land rights, illegal occupation of lands and territories, invasion, colonisation, imperialism, national anthems, flags, coat of arms, emblems etc is frivolous. In 65,000 years from now no one will give a fuck about Albo, Dutton or the result of the referendum. So enjoy life and keep punting while you still can.

[Ziggurat]

Double Adaptor has put into perspective the facts of geological time and therefore the triviality of our various ownership claims.

Here are some maths:

Ayers Rock / Uluru is 500,000,000 years old.

The maximum amount of time that aboriginals coold have been in central Australia is 40,000 years. People had stuck to the coast so it is probably a lot less than that.

500,000,000 ÷ by 40,000 years = 12,500

12,500 as a percentage of 500 million is 0.8%

So the Rock had been there for 99.2% of geological time before the aborigines showed up and began making up fantasies about it.

A fraction further along, after 99.95% of its existence, whites showed up and described it’s geological history scientifically.

Of its two competing histories, one is true and one is bullshit.

But ascribing to and acting in a gentle and passive way on the true rather than to the bullshit can land you a savage $6000 fine. This is imposed by paternalistic white lawmakers who are racistly convinced that the aborigines are so fragile and child-like they can’t cope with anyone else not believing in their tales.

Up until relatively recent times it used to be a live and let live situation. Ie, you believe what you want to believe and the rest of us can be happy with what the empirical - ie, the demonstrated facts, say. Like the way gravity keeps us rooted to the ground. Or the facts of the Earth’s formation. Minor things like that.

When I said that sometimes you can feel “stateless” I had Ayers Rock / Uluru NP in mind. Supposedly that NP is “World Heritage”, ie, it belongs to the whole world. Yet is run by a handful of religious nuts. The park has a vast welter of movement restrictions backed up by savage white sanctions for those disagreeing with them on the basis of demonstrated facts. Transgress off a marked trail to better explore a geology you find stunning and fascinating? – that’ll be $6000 bucks mate.

The walk through The Valley of the Winds at The Olgas / Katatjuta for example, which I have done, goes right through the heart of the domes. It is one of the most stunning, even humbling experiences a human can have. You are reminded of the “Deep Time” that Double Adaptor pointed to.

Well that particular walk had been ripped from the collective human experience. We aren’t allowed to even glimpse it now because a lineage has been there for 0.8% of its geological history while others have only been there for .05%.

Doulbe Adaptor makes the same point of this absurdity.

This is happening all over Australia. In the Grampians. Mount Warning. I read recently of a spectacular look out near Alice Springs that has given people the gift of wonder for over 200 years, is now closed. Our national parks are turning into theocracies for Christ’s sake.

Can you name other countries ruled by religious nuts backed up by savage penalties? I can.

Voice or no voice, this is happening to us. It is intolerant and disrespectful to our collective humanity. I say bring back live and let live.

[rooter]

The NO vote will win and that's OK.
Clearly Australians after 250 years have still not reached a sufficient level of maturity, intelligence and morality.
But that's OK, maybe in another 2 or 3 generations we will get there.
In the meantime enjoy! always enjoy brothers! always enjoy!

[BPunter76]

The fact that the No side has had to do next to zero campaigning says a lot about the Yes side and how pathetic they've been at selling their case.

[frisson]

So many informative posts recently
The Australian voting public 6, months ago were majority in favour of YES. The lack of detail unfortunately was a fatal blow to the YES case. Never sign any contract unless you know the details

For those who support YES, please relieve my fears and respond to the news from New Zealand. Respond and let's see how New Zealand really turns out

news.com.au
“Whatever you do, don’t vote Yes. It’s led to a disaster in New Zealand. We weren’t given a referendum, it’s been forced upon us. It’s led to widespread corruption – corruption of the media, corruption of the Treaty of Waitangi, our founding document, the passing of legislation by stealth, the birth of apartheid and racism and racial division. New Zealand at the moment is a country on its knees and it’s all because of the co-governance agenda pushed by our government for the last six years.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.new...0600d5d0%3famp

[priapus1966]

I voted this morning at Eastwood. Most of the voters who were leaving were typical locals, ie Chinese and Korean migrants. One woman handing out how to cards reckoned it was about 60% no's to 40% yes. Women she reported as more likely to vote no than men. Not surprising overall, but a bit depressing, we are either putting off this ragbag of social/economic problems for another day, or perhaps some folk are just enjoying the buzz of giving long held prejudices an airing.

All the problems will still be in place next Monday morning, so what are the "No's " gunna suggest we do to fix it?

[BPunter76]

I voted this morning at Eastwood. Most of the voters who were leaving were typical locals, ie Chinese and Korean migrants. One woman handing out how to cards reckoned it was about 60% no's to 40% yes. Women she reported as more likely to vote no than men. Not surprising overall, but a bit depressing, we are either putting off this ragbag of social/economic problems for another day, or perhaps some folk are just enjoying the buzz of giving long held prejudices an airing.

All the problems will still be in place next Monday morning, so what are the "No's " gunna suggest we do to fix it?

How about you tell us exactly how a Voice to Parliament will improve the situation for Aboriginals who already have voices elected to the parliament, one of which is against the idea. The floor is all yours, give us your best sales pitch to convince us that a Yes vote will pull Aboriginals out of the dark ages and bring them into line with us, so called, more advantaged white people.

[frisson]

But a bit depressing, we are either putting off this ragbag of social/economic problems for another day, or perhaps some folk are just enjoying the buzz of giving long held prejudices an airing.

All the problems will still be in place next Monday morning, so what are the "No's " gunna suggest we do to fix it?

The consensus of the majority of Australians in this referendum will be that another committee of any type needs to be legislated first to see if it works

Countless previous committees with expert indigenous members have not worked

We currently spend at least $30 billion a year on indigenous health, so the country is definitely not racist

As Bpunter76 says, please suggest if you have any solutions for the most disadvantaged who live in remote territories where it's difficult to attract city nurses, teachers and police
Where there are few job opportunities. These are the most vulnerable we need to help

What are your suggestions?
They can be organised if they are practical

[GoldfishMan]

I get a distinct feeling that a big proportion of the No voters simply want that entire race to die out by itself. Become extinct from their self-destruction spiral. There's no need to ask them for an alternative solution because they don't have one and quite frankly, aren't seeking one.

Let's not pussy foot around it. I think deep down inside that's what a lot of people here in Australia want. They did the hard yards, made it to this "garden of Eden", now there's a sickly thing in the garden that they could either sacrifice some of that garden to save, or they could just let it die on its own and have the garden all to themselves. Many would choose the latter!

[frisson]

I get a distinct feeling that a big proportion of the No voters simply want that entire race to die out by itself. Become extinct from their self-destruction spiral. There's no need to ask them for an alternative solution because they don't have one and quite frankly, aren't seeking one.

Let's not pussy foot around it. I think deep down inside that's what a lot of people here in Australia want. They did the hard yards, made it to this "garden of Eden", now there's a sickly thing in the garden that they could either sacrifice some of that garden to save, or they could just let it die on its own and have the garden all to themselves. Many would choose the latter!

It's so entrenched - many people cant discuss an issue without putting down the opponent

I absolutely disagree with this post
Majority of Australians want progess
They don't want anyone to die out
They just don't trust a referendum with no actual details. At the start of this the majority of Australians were for the YES case. This is fact

So kindly argue your case without denigrating other Australians

[tkicks]

Quoted from Assandlegs on page 13:

"Dutton and his rich cronies have pulled a fast one here.. I hope he gets what he deserves politically.

Voting "Yes" is the only sane, logical thing to do... ONCE YOU HAVE ALL THE INFORMATION."

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]
_____________________
I have seen a LOT of criticism directed at Peter Dutton from the Yes camp. Its just scapegoating/blamestorming. You are seriously over-estimating the influence he has and underestimating the weakness of the Yes argument. There are a lot of reasons people are deciding to vote No but I promise you NOBODY is basing their no vote on the fact that Peter Dutton is a no.

Also....you have inadvertently nailed the key issue....we DONT have all the information....albo refuses to provide it...that's probably the biggest driver of the No votes

[fud]

I recommend listening to Pat Dodson on the National Press Club address today where he is questioned by journos. He is known as the Father of Reconciliation, battling cancer and states his views on why the Voice is what Australia needs as the next step. More articulate than I could ever hope to be. Just press play & have a listen in the background.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfiuJmc_6-w

[ReginaldBubbles]

But ascribing to and acting in a gentle and passive way on the true rather than to the bullshit can land you a savage $6000 fine.

What the fuck does this mean?
I don't have time to respond to the amount of ridiculousness in your post. But bringing maths and percentages into it is desperate and meaningless.

If you think you can't glimpse the Olgas any more https://northernterritory.com/uluru-...juta-the-olgas

If you think "Up until relatively recent times it used to be a live and let live situation," then you should read this, which talks about very recent times.https://theconversation.com/i-cant-a...ew-book-215050

"It is intolerant and disrespectful to our collective humanity. I say bring back live and let live." this and feeling "stateless" are probably your two most ironic complaints when you look at Australian history.

THe main thing I can say though is that none of what you've said about losing the "human right" of accessing whichever lookout I want has anything to do with the voice

[ReginaldBubbles]

I promise you NOBODY is basing their no vote on the fact that Peter Dutton is a no.

Lol how many people are you promising for?
If it was a bipartisan campaign it would probably get through.

Obvioudly there's two reasons he's opposing it. Main one being political to make Albanese look bad. Second, he's a racist ex Queensland cop. But he would put the second one aside if he thought it was politically advantageous. After it's all over most people will still hate him though.

[faruk]

The NO vote will win and that's OK.
Clearly Australians after 250 years have still not reached a sufficient level of maturity, intelligence and morality.
But that's OK, maybe in another 2 or 3 generations we will get there.
In the meantime enjoy! always enjoy brothers! always enjoy!

Such a typical statement from the yes camp - nothing of substance but instead just attempts to label and insult the opposition, i.e. "if you don't agree with me then you must be immature/dumb/immoral".

[dotcumdotinyou]

Since rooter is 2 or 3 generations more mature and intelligent and moral than us then he should choose an aboriginal community somewhere and donate ALL his money to them. He could work hard all week keep enough for basic food and pass the rest on to the community he sponsors. Enjoy rooter! always enjoy!

[ReginaldBubbles]

Since rooter is 2 or 3 generations more mature and intelligent and moral than us then he should choose an aboriginal community somewhere and donate ALL his money to them. He could work hard all week keep enough for basic food and pass the rest on to the community he sponsors. Enjoy rooter! always enjoy!

Yes that argument makes heaps of sense.

So who’s gonna start the next fun and safe discussion about Israel and Palestine??

[ColesBag]

Dutton & Albo are both fucking arseclowns & I have respect for neither of them. And I voted No.

This isn't about which fuckhead pollie or political party you cheerleader for. This is about unelected & unfettered constitutional power.

Vote No.

[Vincent888]

Yes that argument makes heaps of sense.

So who’s gonna start the next fun and safe discussion about Israel and Palestine??

What and hear peoples real feelings?