The referendum, yes or no?

[Soccerfan]

If it was legislation, the libs would turn it over when next in power. This serves no purpose for them and their mates like Palmer and Hancock who want to use their land without proper compensation or consultation. I remember a few years ago Rio Tinto knowingly desecrated sensitive ceremonial locations.

[ReginaldBubbles]

Yes it is GFM, I haven't voted in years but I'm voting in this one

So you don’’t vote but you will this time out of spite.

[fud]

The last referendum in 1999 was No to Australia becoming a republic and this has festered; if No succeeds, status quo remains and the Gap won't ever get closed.

There has to be a better way and this might be a shot at it

There's a common theme to the No voters if Abbott, Bolt, Credlin, Dutton, Hanson, Howard, Palmer, Rinehart and their ilk are in their camp

Conspiracy theories and disinformation spread like wildfire, see this
https://twitter.com/i/status/1709855035184627754

Today, Albo ruled out legislating the Voice if No succeeds as it is the will of the people, he said

As Paul Kelly sang, if not now when, if not us, who..

[Ziggurat]

Well, the people are voting on two things - the voice, and it's constitutional permanence. I hope someone asks Albo how he can possibly know which of the two things they have rejected.

[rubit moore]

So you don’’t vote but you will this time out of spite.

Thats $55 towards a punt after he votes.. why waste it by not voting?!

[ReginaldBubbles]

Well, the people are voting on two things - the voice, and it's constitutional permanence. I hope someone asks Albo how he can possibly know which of the two things they have rejected.

I feel like Australia has been influenced by the US a bit with their fanatical obsession with the idea that the constitution is this sacred document written by our founding fathers that shouldn't be changed (which in the US is basically to defend the second amendment but not so much the others) but it's actually a flexible document that needs to be able to be changed with the times.
In 1901 the Australian people accepted a whole constitution that simply listed what the government could make laws about. There was no detail what those laws would be and we're all fine because the detail can change in the parliament, but the fact that that ability is permanent whichever government is in is important.
It's important that there's always an Aboriginal voice to parliament even if the National Party somehow becomes the government and decides the voice should be one person who makes representations once every ten years. And it's not going to be a body that distributes funds or makes any financial decisions. So many furphys and straw man arguments in this debate for political gain, including the argument that we don't know the detail when it's actually really simple and harmless. There's nothing to lose. And it's not even about race.

[Assandlegs]

Another 5 days and this thread can finally die.. well, it should finally die.

Just as any hope of a decent future will die with it...

I hope all you "No" voters have taken the time to read the actual proposed changes as well as the Uluru Statement from the Heart....

Dutton and his rich cronies have pulled a fast one here.. I hope he gets what he deserves politically.

Voting "Yes" is the only sane, logical thing to do... ONCE YOU HAVE ALL THE INFORMATION.

Bur then, this is a punting forum....

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[superDioplus]

Maybe yes in the future after a thorough debate and mutual agreement on all sides. Right now it is not the time, now it will actually divide the society even more and create more conflict than benefits. This is not a well thought out decision. I will not support it.

[GoldfishMan]

Yes it is GFM, I haven't voted in years but I'm voting in this one

Asking for a relo who’s stuck OS at the moment, that’s all. Postal voting is such a pain in the arse!

[fud]

Asking for a relo who’s stuck OS at the moment, that’s all. Postal voting is such a pain in the arse!

GoldfishMan,
Fyi, there is a postal voting deadline that AEC needs to receive the postal votes by, 13 days after voting day.
https://www.aec.gov.au/referendums/vote/overseas-voting.html

Note this:

Unable to vote
Voting in a referendum is not compulsory for Australians overseas. If you are unable to vote you should complete and submit an overseas notification form.

If you do not inform the AEC, we will write to you asking you to explain why you did not vote.

[expert]

The Nos are winning because a lot of people do not understand what it truly means and they think voting No is the safest answer.

[l337dude]

No, the fact that they make me go all the way out to vote, that's a big "no" from me, I could've used the time for a punt instead...

[BigPedro666]

I bet Langton would choke on here avocado on toast reading this forum

[frisson]

I bet Langton would choke on here avocado on toast reading this forum

Was hoping not to discuss this lady, but since you brought her up

These are her words

"Every time the No cases raise their arguments, if you start pulling it apart you get down to base racism, I'm sorry to say that's where it lands, or sheer stupidity"

She and Ray Martin did nothing to persuade undecided people to their viewpoint. Fact

Name calling really has no place in a civilized discussion

Australians hate being told what to think or what to vote, and particularly if you call people names

This lady is clearly surrounds herself with like minded people. She doesn't yet understand that her opinion is just one opinion among 23 million people. Well she will learn shortly that the population as a whole were not happy to sign up to a contract with the fine print hidden

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-09-13/marcia-langton-clarifies-no-camp-racism-comments/102848644

[dotcumdotinyou]

Sorry A&L but there will still be a decent future for all if the no vote gets up, its not as if they're going to reduce spending in the aboriginal affairs portfolio after Saturday.

And I hope Albo and his cronies get what they deserve for not giving us all the information and having a full and frank debate before going to a vote.

Its great living in a democracy isn't it? a yes vote may seem logical to you just as a no vote seems logical to me, what a great country we live in.

[GoldfishMan]

Sorry A&L but there will still be a decent future for all if the no vote gets up, its not as if they're going to reduce spending in the aboriginal affairs portfolio after Saturday.

And I hope Albo and his cronies get what they deserve for not giving us all the information and having a full and frank debate before going to a vote.

Its great living in a democracy isn't it? a yes vote may seem logical to you just as a no vote seems logical to me, what a great country we live in.

He has a point, bro. Any country will prosper if all of her people prosper. If there is an entire race living in it, that calls themselves her citizens, that are non-productive to society, then it simply creates a negative drag on the country as a whole.
Throw out everything and look at it purely from an economic POV, that's the unavoidable truth that you will be left with.

Imagine an Australia where no extra spending is needed on Aboriginals. How much do we spend now? That's how much we stand to gain if we can beat this bogeyman, get that race up to speed and be productive like everyone else. Then we will all prosper.

[dotcumdotinyou]

I'm sorry GFM but that seems racist to me. Your saying that aboriginals are an anchor on the economy and we'd all be better off if they smartened up?

I'm voting no because it hasn't been debated properly and the information from the yes side hasn't changed my suspicions of what it will mean for the constitution in the future, not because I want "that race up to speed and be productive like everyone else".

[GoldfishMan]

I'm sorry GFM but that seems racist to me. Your saying that aboriginals are an anchor on the economy and we'd all be better off if they smartened up?

I'm voting no because it hasn't been debated properly and the information from the yes side hasn't changed my suspicions of what it will mean for the constitution in the future, not because I want "that race up to speed and be productive like everyone else".

That's why I said you have to throw out everything and look at it purely from an economic point of view. If you want to debate about $$$ that's what you have to do.

Go ahead and sprinkle some salt and pepper on my argument, call me a racist. It doesn't take away from the fact that to vote No is to vote for the status quo, to continue paying all this $$$, on every budget every year, just to kick the can further along. Until what... A better idea comes up? Good luck with that.

[Ziggurat]

It's not going to get up. It is behind in all mainland states and well behind in Qld and WA. Tassie has got a slim lead for yes. I think I saw oz wide only 8% are undecided.

If it is such a great idea, though none of that optimism is evidence based, I'm not sure why Albanese - if he so truly believes it is such a miracle idea - is petulantly thowing his baby out with the bathwater if (when) we don't vote yes for it in this form.

[fud]

Very good discussion on Q&A re the Voice Referendum tonight
https://iview.abc.net.au/video/NC2304H032S00

[ReginaldBubbles]

I'm voting no because it hasn't been debated properly and the information from the yes side hasn't changed my suspicions of what it will mean for the constitution in the future,

I think it's been debated pretty thoroughly but it's hard to argue against a scare campaign full of lies and misinformation. And for those who say it's the yes campaign that's negative, "no" is literally negative. What are those suspicions about the constitution in the future? I'm perplexed. Some think all the constitutional experts who say it's fine are just worried about being cancelled or something but that makes no sense.

[rubit moore]

Went along and voted today and both sides of the fence were standing outside with their placards, representing - sensed a bit of edginess in the air. Got asked ‘ Do you need any help?’ and a leaflet thrust towards me.
I responded ‘No thanks, I got all my info from a sex forum.’
Got let through and nobody uttered another word!

[frisson]

Went along and voted today and both sides of the fence were standing outside with their placards, representing - sensed a bit of edginess in the air. Got asked ‘ Do you need any help?’ and a leaflet thrust towards me.
I responded ‘No thanks, I got all my info from a sex forum.’
Got let through and nobody uttered another word!

If you get your info from this forum, then you have read recent posts about being confident when speaking to women

Were there any appealing ladies to discuss the referendum with?

The polls already clearly predict what the result will be, but a little conversation is a healthy thing

[Radoush]

Some of the constitution changes have been realise and if they win they are going to abolish South Australia into regions then it looks other states will follow and if you own home the yes people can take the land the land underneath it off you Under treaty law so if you vote yes don't complain later when your house is worth near zero because it's the land that's the real wealth

[fted]

Some of the constitution changes have been realise and if they win they are going to abolish South Australia into regions then it looks other states will follow and if you own home the yes people can take the land the land underneath it off you Under treaty law so if you vote yes don't complain later when your house is worth near zero because it's the land that's the real wealth
wtf is this gibberish supposed to mean?

[Vincent888]

Were there any appealing ladies to discuss the referendum with?


I happened to be at Ashfield mall, voted there. Plenty of Asian hotties about but none handing out brochures…

[hornedbeast]

Tick yes, Burnem Burnem says. Yet you need to write yes or no.

[priapus1966]

Some of the constitution changes have been realise and if they win they are going to abolish South Australia into regions then it looks other states will follow and if you own home the yes people can take the land the land underneath it off you Under treaty law so if you vote yes don't complain later when your house is worth near zero because it's the land that's the real wealth

Bollocks! methinks.

[ColesBag]

Went along and voted today and both sides of the fence were standing outside with their placards, representing - sensed a bit of edginess in the air. Got asked ‘ Do you need any help?’ and a leaflet thrust towards me.
I responded ‘No thanks, I got all my info from a sex forum.’
Got let through and nobody uttered another word!

Whether this is true or not I giggled.

The rest of you should Vote No.

[faruk]

Observing traditional cultures, native ceremonies, dance or whatever is not an empty gesture imo, it’s actually done all over the world. I think if someone lacks their own culture, tradition, language, identity etc… it might be seen as an empty gesture, which is understandable.

I’m assuming you see the Hakka as an empty gesture, plenty are facinated and humbled by it.

When other people are celebrating these, you can always just put some headphones in and listen to Alan Jones, Andrew Bolt or just read or educate yourself even more (if that’s possible) by catching up on the latest AR’s on this forum then everyone can be happy.

How can you even begin to compare the two? The haka was a war dance, now used to display pride/strength. The acknowledgement of country is an admission that what the British did to the Aborigines here hundreds of years ago was wrong. If it's so wrong, then give the land back. You don't want to? Then stop apologising for it because that's what makes it empty.

[Ziggurat]

Just watching the referendum road trip now. Mansell, Mayo and Burney are on it. Days out and it isn't a discussion they are having it is a post mortem.. Looks like they've given up.

[Double_Adapter]

Regardless of whether you support/believe the Out of Africa theory or the multiregional theory Aboriginals, Denisovans, Neanderthals, Papuans and all other known races originated from Africa eons ago. As nomads they wondered, travelled, migrated, squattered, and invaded other continents, regions, lands and peoples. It's true that aborigines are the oldest known civilisation on earth but at 65,000 yrs that is relatively embryotic when compared to the age of earth (at 4.6 billion years) or the age of the skeletal remains of Ardi at 4.4 million yrs or Lucy at 3.2 million yrs.

So whether you believe in creation (ie some higher power created all this shit) or evolution (everything emanated and evolved from some random cosmic big bang) at the end of the day the planet belongs to nobody and we are simply nomadic squatters. We come into this world alone, naked, and with fuck all, and we leave it the same fucken way. Nothing we say, do or argue about, can change that....it is what it is!
People, nations, cultures, languages, powers, religions, etc will come and go but earth will continue to remain terra firma (ie unless some fucked up group of deranged individuals decide to randomly press the red button - and we're not far from that scenario)

So arguing about land rights, illegal occupation of lands and territories, invasion, colonisation, imperialism, national anthems, flags, coat of arms, emblems etc is frivolous. In 65,000 years from now no one will give a fuck about Albo, Dutton or the result of the referendum. So enjoy life and keep punting while you still can.

[Ziggurat]

Double Adaptor has put into perspective the facts of geological time and therefore the triviality of our various ownership claims.

Here are some maths:

Ayers Rock / Uluru is 500,000,000 years old.

The maximum amount of time that aboriginals coold have been in central Australia is 40,000 years. People had stuck to the coast so it is probably a lot less than that.

500,000,000 ÷ by 40,000 years = 12,500

12,500 as a percentage of 500 million is 0.8%

So the Rock had been there for 99.2% of geological time before the aborigines showed up and began making up fantasies about it.

A fraction further along, after 99.95% of its existence, whites showed up and described it’s geological history scientifically.

Of its two competing histories, one is true and one is bullshit.

But ascribing to and acting in a gentle and passive way on the true rather than to the bullshit can land you a savage $6000 fine. This is imposed by paternalistic white lawmakers who are racistly convinced that the aborigines are so fragile and child-like they can’t cope with anyone else not believing in their tales.

Up until relatively recent times it used to be a live and let live situation. Ie, you believe what you want to believe and the rest of us can be happy with what the empirical - ie, the demonstrated facts, say. Like the way gravity keeps us rooted to the ground. Or the facts of the Earth’s formation. Minor things like that.

When I said that sometimes you can feel “stateless” I had Ayers Rock / Uluru NP in mind. Supposedly that NP is “World Heritage”, ie, it belongs to the whole world. Yet is run by a handful of religious nuts. The park has a vast welter of movement restrictions backed up by savage white sanctions for those disagreeing with them on the basis of demonstrated facts. Transgress off a marked trail to better explore a geology you find stunning and fascinating? – that’ll be $6000 bucks mate.

The walk through The Valley of the Winds at The Olgas / Katatjuta for example, which I have done, goes right through the heart of the domes. It is one of the most stunning, even humbling experiences a human can have. You are reminded of the “Deep Time” that Double Adaptor pointed to.

Well that particular walk had been ripped from the collective human experience. We aren’t allowed to even glimpse it now because a lineage has been there for 0.8% of its geological history while others have only been there for .05%.

Doulbe Adaptor makes the same point of this absurdity.

This is happening all over Australia. In the Grampians. Mount Warning. I read recently of a spectacular look out near Alice Springs that has given people the gift of wonder for over 200 years, is now closed. Our national parks are turning into theocracies for Christ’s sake.

Can you name other countries ruled by religious nuts backed up by savage penalties? I can.

Voice or no voice, this is happening to us. It is intolerant and disrespectful to our collective humanity. I say bring back live and let live.

[rooter]

The NO vote will win and that's OK.
Clearly Australians after 250 years have still not reached a sufficient level of maturity, intelligence and morality.
But that's OK, maybe in another 2 or 3 generations we will get there.
In the meantime enjoy! always enjoy brothers! always enjoy!

[BPunter76]

The fact that the No side has had to do next to zero campaigning says a lot about the Yes side and how pathetic they've been at selling their case.

[frisson]

So many informative posts recently
The Australian voting public 6, months ago were majority in favour of YES. The lack of detail unfortunately was a fatal blow to the YES case. Never sign any contract unless you know the details

For those who support YES, please relieve my fears and respond to the news from New Zealand. Respond and let's see how New Zealand really turns out

news.com.au
“Whatever you do, don’t vote Yes. It’s led to a disaster in New Zealand. We weren’t given a referendum, it’s been forced upon us. It’s led to widespread corruption – corruption of the media, corruption of the Treaty of Waitangi, our founding document, the passing of legislation by stealth, the birth of apartheid and racism and racial division. New Zealand at the moment is a country on its knees and it’s all because of the co-governance agenda pushed by our government for the last six years.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.news.com.au/finance/economy/world-economy/purely-racist-inside-new-zealands-growing-rightwing-movement-against-maori-cogovernance/news-story/f9a320f7d28d4b9275381e3e0600d5d0%3famp

[priapus1966]

I voted this morning at Eastwood. Most of the voters who were leaving were typical locals, ie Chinese and Korean migrants. One woman handing out how to cards reckoned it was about 60% no's to 40% yes. Women she reported as more likely to vote no than men. Not surprising overall, but a bit depressing, we are either putting off this ragbag of social/economic problems for another day, or perhaps some folk are just enjoying the buzz of giving long held prejudices an airing.

All the problems will still be in place next Monday morning, so what are the "No's " gunna suggest we do to fix it?

[BPunter76]

I voted this morning at Eastwood. Most of the voters who were leaving were typical locals, ie Chinese and Korean migrants. One woman handing out how to cards reckoned it was about 60% no's to 40% yes. Women she reported as more likely to vote no than men. Not surprising overall, but a bit depressing, we are either putting off this ragbag of social/economic problems for another day, or perhaps some folk are just enjoying the buzz of giving long held prejudices an airing.

All the problems will still be in place next Monday morning, so what are the "No's " gunna suggest we do to fix it?
How about you tell us exactly how a Voice to Parliament will improve the situation for Aboriginals who already have voices elected to the parliament, one of which is against the idea. The floor is all yours, give us your best sales pitch to convince us that a Yes vote will pull Aboriginals out of the dark ages and bring them into line with us, so called, more advantaged white people.

[frisson]

But a bit depressing, we are either putting off this ragbag of social/economic problems for another day, or perhaps some folk are just enjoying the buzz of giving long held prejudices an airing.

All the problems will still be in place next Monday morning, so what are the "No's " gunna suggest we do to fix it?

The consensus of the majority of Australians in this referendum will be that another committee of any type needs to be legislated first to see if it works

Countless previous committees with expert indigenous members have not worked

We currently spend at least $30 billion a year on indigenous health, so the country is definitely not racist

As Bpunter76 says, please suggest if you have any solutions for the most disadvantaged who live in remote territories where it's difficult to attract city nurses, teachers and police
Where there are few job opportunities. These are the most vulnerable we need to help

What are your suggestions?
They can be organised if they are practical

[GoldfishMan]

I get a distinct feeling that a big proportion of the No voters simply want that entire race to die out by itself. Become extinct from their self-destruction spiral. There's no need to ask them for an alternative solution because they don't have one and quite frankly, aren't seeking one.

Let's not pussy foot around it. I think deep down inside that's what a lot of people here in Australia want. They did the hard yards, made it to this "garden of Eden", now there's a sickly thing in the garden that they could either sacrifice some of that garden to save, or they could just let it die on its own and have the garden all to themselves. Many would choose the latter!

[frisson]

I get a distinct feeling that a big proportion of the No voters simply want that entire race to die out by itself. Become extinct from their self-destruction spiral. There's no need to ask them for an alternative solution because they don't have one and quite frankly, aren't seeking one.

Let's not pussy foot around it. I think deep down inside that's what a lot of people here in Australia want. They did the hard yards, made it to this "garden of Eden", now there's a sickly thing in the garden that they could either sacrifice some of that garden to save, or they could just let it die on its own and have the garden all to themselves. Many would choose the latter!

It's so entrenched - many people cant discuss an issue without putting down the opponent

I absolutely disagree with this post
Majority of Australians want progess
They don't want anyone to die out
They just don't trust a referendum with no actual details. At the start of this the majority of Australians were for the YES case. This is fact

So kindly argue your case without denigrating other Australians

[tkicks]

Quoted from Assandlegs on page 13:

"Dutton and his rich cronies have pulled a fast one here.. I hope he gets what he deserves politically.

Voting "Yes" is the only sane, logical thing to do... ONCE YOU HAVE ALL THE INFORMATION."

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]
_____________________
I have seen a LOT of criticism directed at Peter Dutton from the Yes camp. Its just scapegoating/blamestorming. You are seriously over-estimating the influence he has and underestimating the weakness of the Yes argument. There are a lot of reasons people are deciding to vote No but I promise you NOBODY is basing their no vote on the fact that Peter Dutton is a no.

Also....you have inadvertently nailed the key issue....we DONT have all the information....albo refuses to provide it...that's probably the biggest driver of the No votes

[fud]

I recommend listening to Pat Dodson on the National Press Club address today where he is questioned by journos. He is known as the Father of Reconciliation, battling cancer and states his views on why the Voice is what Australia needs as the next step. More articulate than I could ever hope to be. Just press play & have a listen in the background.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfiuJmc_6-w

[ReginaldBubbles]

But ascribing to and acting in a gentle and passive way on the true rather than to the bullshit can land you a savage $6000 fine.

What the fuck does this mean?
I don't have time to respond to the amount of ridiculousness in your post. But bringing maths and percentages into it is desperate and meaningless.

If you think you can't glimpse the Olgas any more https://northernterritory.com/uluru-and-surrounds/destinations/kata-tjuta-the-olgas

If you think "Up until relatively recent times it used to be a live and let live situation," then you should read this, which talks about very recent times.https://theconversation.com/i-cant-argue-away-the-shame-frontier-violence-and-family-history-converge-in-david-marrs-harrowing-and-important-new-book-215050

"It is intolerant and disrespectful to our collective humanity. I say bring back live and let live." this and feeling "stateless" are probably your two most ironic complaints when you look at Australian history.

THe main thing I can say though is that none of what you've said about losing the "human right" of accessing whichever lookout I want has anything to do with the voice

[ReginaldBubbles]

I promise you NOBODY is basing their no vote on the fact that Peter Dutton is a no.


Lol how many people are you promising for?
If it was a bipartisan campaign it would probably get through.

Obvioudly there's two reasons he's opposing it. Main one being political to make Albanese look bad. Second, he's a racist ex Queensland cop. But he would put the second one aside if he thought it was politically advantageous. After it's all over most people will still hate him though.

[faruk]

The NO vote will win and that's OK.
Clearly Australians after 250 years have still not reached a sufficient level of maturity, intelligence and morality.
But that's OK, maybe in another 2 or 3 generations we will get there.
In the meantime enjoy! always enjoy brothers! always enjoy!

Such a typical statement from the yes camp - nothing of substance but instead just attempts to label and insult the opposition, i.e. "if you don't agree with me then you must be immature/dumb/immoral".

[dotcumdotinyou]

Since rooter is 2 or 3 generations more mature and intelligent and moral than us then he should choose an aboriginal community somewhere and donate ALL his money to them. He could work hard all week keep enough for basic food and pass the rest on to the community he sponsors. Enjoy rooter! always enjoy!

[ReginaldBubbles]

Since rooter is 2 or 3 generations more mature and intelligent and moral than us then he should choose an aboriginal community somewhere and donate ALL his money to them. He could work hard all week keep enough for basic food and pass the rest on to the community he sponsors. Enjoy rooter! always enjoy!

Yes that argument makes heaps of sense.

So who’s gonna start the next fun and safe discussion about Israel and Palestine??

[ColesBag]

Dutton & Albo are both fucking arseclowns & I have respect for neither of them. And I voted No.

This isn't about which fuckhead pollie or political party you cheerleader for. This is about unelected & unfettered constitutional power.

Vote No.

[Vincent888]

Yes that argument makes heaps of sense.

So who’s gonna start the next fun and safe discussion about Israel and Palestine??

What and hear peoples real feelings?

[frisson]

I'm looking forward to waiting for the end of this thread and then counting which group, YES or NO, made more personal critical comments about the other side. I predict that side also loses the referendum

The majority of Australians were going to vote YES in July showing they do care about this issue

You don't win arguments by criticising the other side

You win by debating their argument.

Will look forward to seeing the best of the arguments for the YES case. So far it's "Let's do our best with an untested committee costing millions. Agree to a contract without knowing the details. What could go wrong?"

Debating by denegrating your opponent isn't the way to persuade people

Use of terms such as "racists" and "dickheads" actually lost the referendum for that side
Suggesting one side "wants indigenous to die out" also is a personal criticism and actually is not a debate on the topic of a Voice without detail

Tone down the debate temperature and just debate the topic - if you are able

[Ziggurat]

.But ascribing to and acting in a gentle and passive way on the true rather than to the bullshit can land you a savage $6000 fine.


What the fuck does this mean?


There’s no need to swear. By that I mean, ascribing to objective reality rather than to supernaturalism (ie, bullshit). Doing this by walking where you wish to walk in a World Heritage area, and being gentle and passive about it, and making any photographs as your creative urge motivates you too and hopefully not even leaving any footprints.


I don't have time to respond to the amount of ridiculousness in your post.

"Ridiculous" is a mere assertion. It is no argument. Convenient too that you don’t have time to respond. Ironically, time was my main argument. You need to address my points line by line with substantial counter arguments. Unless you can do that, don’t bother replying because it won’t be a reply. If you can’t formulate these, even in your own head, you are intellectually obligated to adopt my own position. (As I would yours.)


bringing maths and percentages into it is desperate and meaningless.

That is again a mere empty assertion that, understandably, you don’t bother to justify. The maths was in service of highlighting perspective and objectivity. That is its meaning. In this case, the shared minute fractions of time both white and aboriginal have been around compared to the geology of the Rock and the Olgas, and therefore the absurdity of a black view of them being imposed on those who don’t share the view. In their case backed up by savagely disproportionate white penalties. That was all quite clear. In primary school we were taught two important things: reading and comprehension. You need to brush up on the latter.


If you think you can't glimpse the Olgas any more https://northernterritory.com/uluru-and-surrounds/destinations/kata-tjuta-the-olgas

Thank you for that link. I was clearly talking about the walk through the centre of the domes. There you are surrounded by them on all sides. That place is one of the most stunning experiences a human can have. It’s unique on a planetary scale. Don’t trivialise it by putting quotation remarks around the “human right” to awe and wonder. That is a profound cultural right, as is taking any photos you wish to of the natural landscape. It is like the Pope locking up the Sistine Chapel for good, except it’s worse than even that.

People are now herded onto a viewing platform with a gaggle of tourists to look at the few set views people are now allowed to have, like it’s a theme park. That is fine to do, but we have lost the choice not to. And guess what? Since it became a theocracy visitor numbers to the Park have halved.


If you think "Up until relatively recent times it used to be a live and let live situation," then you should read this, which talks about very recent times.https://theconversation.com/i-cant-argue-away-the-shame-frontier-violence-and-family-history-converge-in-david-marrs-harrowing-and-important-new-book-215050


Thanks again for taking the trouble to find a link and post it. My whole context however was about a supernatural belief being imposed on objective, proven knowledge. Transgress the religion and it is a $6000 fine. In regard to the natural landscape in National Parks, formerly the aborigines had their beliefs and we had our objective facts. It was a live and let live situation. Now you use that line to imply I was talking about the whole history of colonisation! Were you truly blind to the context or being deliberately cynical? Here in fact is the full quote:


Up until relatively recent times it used to be a live and let live situation. Ie, you believe what you want to believe and the rest of us can be happy with what the empirical - ie, the demonstrated facts say.

It was nothing to do with the history of colonisation, so argue properly or don't argue.



"It is intolerant and disrespectful to our collective humanity. I say bring back live and let live." this and feeling "stateless" are probably your two most ironic complaints when you look at Australian history.

You didn’t comprehend. Sorry I keep repeating that, but you appear to be an inteliigent guy and may be worthy material for an attempted lightning cure. I wasn’t writing about history, I was writing about the here and now. That is, being denied access to the very best natural wonders in our own country. This literally forms a border to them, so it literally becomes a denial of state. Because I see it in World Heritage terms, which should be borderless, I’ve described how this is disrespectful to our collective humanity.


The main thing I can say though is that none of what you've said about losing the "human right" of accessing whichever lookout I want has anything to do with the voice

It was about the consequences of aboriginal mythology dictating to those who - harmlessly to both it and themselves - don’t ascribe to it. The Voice would no doubt view this very favourably and continue to support and propagate it.

[GoldfishMan]

It's so entrenched - many people cant discuss an issue without putting down the opponent

I absolutely disagree with this post
Majority of Australians want progess
They don't want anyone to die out
They just don't trust a referendum with no actual details. At the start of this the majority of Australians were for the YES case. This is fact

So kindly argue your case without denigrating other Australians

Nope, not going to put forward any arguments or debate on this. It is simply the feeling I'm getting from all this debate to this point.

EDIT: Besides, I said I felt that a big proportion of the No voters were like this, not all of them. If you feel like this doesn't apply to you, you ought to have a clear conscience and not feel a thing.

[frisson]

Nope, not going to put forward any arguments or debate on this. It is simply the feeling I'm getting from all this debate to this point.

This is equivalent to saying "It's the vibe"

Is that right? I am just trying to understand you correctly

Respect your opinion and the discussion

[ReginaldBubbles]

unfettered constitutional power.


Please be serious

[frisson]

That's a fair point you make

[Vincent888]

YouGov Polls are in.

At present it’s 58% No and 38% Yes. For discussion purposes it’ll be interesting to see the final figures.


How much money was spent on this referendum?

Probably could have built 500 houses or a couple of hospitals out in the bush where they were needed.

Great.

[frisson]

How much money was spent on this referendum?

Probably could have built 500 houses or a couple of hospitals out in the bush where they were needed

About $450 million, according to official statistics

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-05/voice-to-parliament-referendum-2023-most-asked-questions/102878560

[Vincent888]

Fact not opinion

How much is the campaign costing taxpayers?
The AEC has estimated the cost of the referendum will be about $450 million, where the federal government had supplied $364 million in the most recent budget to deliver the referendum.

The PM has responsibility to ensure the population has all the facts to make a proper decision

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-05/voice-to-parliament-referendum-2023-most-asked-questions/102878560

I’ve already heard $450M bandied about.

Quid pro quo 500 houses in the bush, we’re not talking Vaucluse mansions and two small hospitals at $200M each plus equipment. Again bush hospitals not Royal North Shore equivalent.

That’s where the money should have been spent. Another thing. Why doesn’t Australia use a voting app? Software is already in place for other Govt apps. Just a slight mod. $20M.

[frisson]

Why doesn’t Australia use a voting app? Software is already in place for other Govt apps. Just a slight mod. $20M.

Not a chance
Optus and Medibank are examples of organisations that can't stop their data from being compromised
Democracy can't risk elections being compromised
There is too high a risk of cyber hacking, particularly now that entire countries are funding hacking of other countries infrastructure

[Flasher]

I'm voting No after few family discussion at the dinner table. I'm going with my oldest who has recently handed in essay assignment about the constitution includes debating both side of the Yes & No referendum.
There is no right or wrong voting Yes or No, is wonderful living in democracy where you get to make choices hopefully one day voting is not compulsory in this great nation.

[Double_Adapter]

Not a chance
Optus and Medibank are examples of organisations that can't stop their data from being compromised
Democracy can't risk elections being compromised
There is too high a risk of cyber hacking, particularly now that entire countries are funding hacking of other countries infrastructure

+1

If ASIO, FBI, CIA, The Pentagon, DHS, DOD et al can get compromised by foreign state based actors there's no fucken hope in the world any other entity eg Aussie governments or private organisations is safe from being compromised.

I've said it before....off the grid, face-to-face, and cash only is the only way to beat cyber attacks/threats.
Unfortunately we live in a world where everyone has been conditioned to depend on tech, go online, tap-and-go, scan this/that, wearables and fancy gadgets, apps, smartphones, tablets, AI and all that other bullshit, that we forget we are literally handing over all our private info (PII) and trusting some organisation or businesses to store it safely and securely for us. It's fucked!! It's like handing over all your savings to a 3 yr old and asking/trusting them to store it for you and keep it safe. Regardless of what anyone tells you, if it's man made it can be broken and it can be hacked.

[frisson]

There is no right or wrong voting Yes or No, is wonderful living in democracy where you get to make choices hopefully one day voting is not compulsory in this great nation.

True. It's a democracy. Vote YES or vote NO

So why the need for name calling in the debate? Lobbyists using derogatory words like "racist" or "d-khead"

Don't listen to others. Vote by what your gut tells you to do, whatever that is

[Double_Adapter]

Part 1
Mid week I decided to venture out and try out the local polling place. As I was approaching the entrance gate there was a milf in gym gear handing out NO leaflets, she smiled and offered me one, I politely said 'I won't be needing one, thank you'. She was cool about it and as I kep making my way into the building there were two other milfs handing out YES leaflets. They also offered me a leaflet and I responded exactly the same way 'I won't be needing one, thank you' but one of the MILFs was persistent and tried to persuade me to take one commenting about all the misinformation that was out there, I remembered the post Rubit Moore and so I used the same line on her, and said 'No thanks, I got all my info from a sex forum.’ and kept making my way into the hall.

Part2
I entered the room and it was brightly lit, there were two GILFs and two MILFs to choose from so I picked the prettiest MILF. I said hi and she smiled, we sorted out the legalities and she gave me a ballot and a pencil and directed me to a booth. A few tense moments lapsed as I tried to make the most of the occassion, with all the formalities and foreplay out of the way I headed over to the glory box, and I inserted my ballot into the slit, the opening was a sight to behold, I was hesitant for a millisecond but kept inserting it all the way in as far as it would go - all my inhibitions were let loose, and as I released my load into the box it swallowed it up completely through to completion. All that unresolved tension that had been brewing for several weeks had dissipated in an instant. As I recovered I disposed the used pencil into a bin and had one final look at the glory box, It was already half full from the loads of previous punters. As I walked out I felt content and satisfied that the deed was over and done with as several punters made their way in.

Would I return? No!.....perhaps in 3-4 years but YMMV

[Vincent888]

Write on!

But in all seriousness who watches those boxes? The mamasan in the security room?

What would happen if one vote was “rubbed out” after exiting? Like in the “sizing up punters” thread… The lead in the pencil was already spent what then! Could all the loads into the boxes be accounted for?

I’m not sure having plenty of lead in those pencils is the way to go. There could be complaints like “too big” or “too much power”.

Need to change to pens. We all have one, well, most of us do…

[frisson]

I would vote YES if there is a Voice Committee model that has a proven track record of working. That would be great, because over 100 years, no past Committee for indigenous prosperity in this country has addressed the chronic gap in health and disadvantage

[fted]

A vote for No is a vote for the status quo, where we have people living in third world conditions in a supposedly first world country.

Yep, lots of committees have tried and failed, at least if it's in the constitution it can't be ignored or just dropped by subsequent governments.

Seems we aren't happy to give aboriginal people a voice that would be public and open to scrutiny, but don't seem too bothered that big business do the same thing, via their lobbyists, but all in secret behind closed doors.

[frisson]

That's a fair point

[BPunter76]

Fact not opinion:

How much is the campaign costing taxpayers?
The AEC has estimated the cost of the referendum will be about $450 million, where the federal government had supplied $364 million in the most recent budget to deliver the referendum.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-05/voice-to-parliament-referendum-2023-most-asked-questions/102878560

The PM has the responsibility before this vote to ensure the population had all the facts to make a proper decision, otherwise he should have just spent $450 million directly on bridging the Gap in indigenous health
Is there really a gap in indigenous health care? Indigenous Australians are entitled to access exactly the same taxpayer funded health care as every other citizen. To say there is a gap is comparable to the assertion that there is a pay gap between males and females and we all know that any gap in pay between males and females is only because they either can't or refuse to do jobs or long enough hours to bridge the gap, not because the salary or hourly rate is different for males and females.

[BPunter76]

A vote for No is a vote for the status quo, where we have people living in third world conditions in a supposedly first world country.

Yep, lots of committees have tried and failed, at least if it's in the constitution it can't be ignored or just dropped by subsequent governments.

Seems we aren't happy to give aboriginal people a voice that would be public and open to scrutiny, but don't seem too bothered that big business do the same thing, via their lobbyists, but all in secret behind closed doors.
Just to expand on the previous reply, indigenous people are not the only people living in third world conditions in this country, who will be the voice to Parliament for those people in our democracy?

[hornedbeast]

Vote yes to more bbbj

[BPunter76]

Vote yes to more bbbj how about a yes or no referendum on banning CBJ.

[frisson]

how about a yes or no referendum on banning CBJ.

Will that CBJ referendum cost $450 million like the current Albanese referendum?

Just imagine how many punts that amount of money can provide for Australian punters.

More than one punt per punter?

[rooter]

I vote YES to Yoga Pants and NO to Crocs

[Double_Adapter]

Will that CBJ referendum cost $450 million like the current Albanese referendum?

Just imagine how many punts that amount of money can provide for Australian punters.

More than one punt per punter?

Are you serious! So you're saying they spent $450m on this referendum?
That is one fucken expensive NO! Normally it's the other way around.

[frisson]

Are you serious! So you're saying they spent $450m on this referendum?
That is one fucken expensive NO! Normally it's the other way around.

Yes bro. I take no pleasure in repeating official records

The AEC has estimated the cost of the referendum will be about $450 million, where the federal government had supplied $364 million in the most recent budget to deliver the referendum.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-05/voice-to-parliament-referendum-2023-most-asked-questions/102878560

The PM had the responsibility before this vote to ensure the population had all the facts to make a proper decision, otherwise he should have just spent $450 million directly on bridging the Gap in indigenous health

Most Australians absolutely want the Gap closed. Just as they want all homeless people in this country cared for
Most Australians were going to vote YES back in July 2023 which shows they are very fair minded

The problem was no detailed model was presented. The Voice should have been put into action first to see of this new Committee is any better than all the previous unsuccessful ones over 100 years

[kingwally]

Yes bro. I take no pleasure in repeating official records

The AEC has estimated the cost of the referendum will be about $450 million, where the federal government had supplied $364 million in the most recent budget to deliver the referendum.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-05/voice-to-parliament-referendum-2023-most-asked-questions/102878560

The PM had the responsibility before this vote to ensure the population had all the facts to make a proper decision, otherwise he should have just spent $450 million directly on bridging the Gap in indigenous health

Most Australians absolutely want the Gap closed. Just as they want all homeless people in this country cared for
Most Australians were going to vote YES back in July 2023 which shows they are very fair minded

The problem was no detailed model was presented. The Voice should have been put into action first to see of this new Committee is any better than all the previous unsuccessful ones over 100 years

Well said, we all want better outcomes for Indigenous people, but the useless cunt Albanese decided to waste $450M that could have been used for better anything for those that need help. The cunt is a dill.

[rubit moore]

Part 1
"They also offered me a leaflet and I responded exactly the same way 'I won't be needing one, thank you' but one of the MILFs was persistent and tried to persuade me to take one commenting about all the misinformation that was out there, I remembered the post Rubit Moore and so I used the same line on her, and said 'No thanks, I got all my info from a sex forum.’ and kept making my way into the hall.

Part2
I entered the room and it was brightly lit, there were two GILFs and two MILFs to choose from so I picked the prettiest MILF...."



Haha good post Double Adaptor!... Reminds me, I forgot to mention that when I voted that day, an old Chinese MILF who was offering referendum advice as I walked in, got in my face as I was leaving. Talking AT me, not to me, like they sometimes do, you know? Loud enough for all to hear.

"SO!! You go sex forum for election advice too...??!!" she shrieked.

Maybe she'd visited this forum I wondered.

"Well yes, there ARE dedicated threads on there regarding medication,where to buy, health, lifestyle and nutritional advice for cracking and maintaining a solid fat. Very informative if so required"

She clearly wasn't listening..

"OK!! When you have next election.... come see me, ok!"

Keep talking like that and you'll see it sooner than you think!

[frisson]

When I voted that day, an old Chinese MILF who was offering referendum advice as I walked in, got in my face as I was leaving. Talking AT me, not to me, like
If you have a convincing point of view, you don't need to confront people aggressively. If your point of view has merit then you can convince people without harassing them

I also hate being talked at by people who think they know better than you

[frisson]

A vote for No is a vote for the status quo, where we have people living in third world conditions in a supposedly first world country.

Yep, lots of committees have tried and failed, at least if it's in the constitution it can't be ignored or just dropped by subsequent governments.

Seems we aren't happy to give aboriginal people a voice that would be public and open to scrutiny, but don't seem too bothered that big business do the same thing, via their lobbyists, but all in secret behind closed doors.

Respect your opinion. Just discussing your point

Don't we have more than 11, yes ELEVEN, sitting established indigenous members of Federal Parliament, which is an overrepresentation of indigenous numbers in Australia? They have daily access to the floor of Parliament in Canberra. That isn't a Voice of some type?

I can promise you I don't have a direct access to the floor of Parliament like that

I fail to see how it can be said the Indigenous don't have a voice. Can you quote how many indigenous lobby groups in Canberra are already directly interacting with Fed Government policy makers, in a formal capacity

I can Google the exact number if you need

[GoldfishMan]

I vote YES to Yoga Pants and NO to Crocs

Bro, the Crocs have evolved. They now have Croc high-heels. I spotted a leggy hottie in the city the other day wearing a pair. They actually look quite sexy!

[rooter]

Bro, the Crocs have evolved. They now have Croc high-heels. I spotted a leggy hottie in the city the other day wearing a pair. They actually look quite sexy!

I have seen the glamourised and pimped up Crocs bro. They are actually trendy now, especially with young Asian girls. But a Croc is still a Croc.

[kingwally]

Respect your opinion. Just discussing your point

Don't we have more than 11, yes ELEVEN, sitting established indigenous members of Federal Parliament, which is an overrepresentation of indigenous numbers in Australia? They have daily access to the floor of Parliament in Canberra. That isn't a Voice of some type?

I can promise you I don't have a direct access to the floor of Parliament like that

I fail to see how it can be said the Indigenous don't have a voice. Can you quote how many indigenous lobby groups in Canberra are already directly interacting with Fed Government policy makers, in a formal capacity

I can Google the exact number if you need
I have seen Linda Burney on TV all this week and she is somebody who CAN make a difference to the Indigenous battlers but she is failing in her role as Minister for Indigenous Affairs.....she has done fucking nothing for her people.

[frisson]

I have seen Linda Burney on TV all this week and she is somebody who CAN make a difference to the Indigenous battlers but she is failing in her role as Minister for Indigenous Affairs.....she has done fucking nothing for her people.

The truth, rarely talked about, is shocking

The Federal Indigenous Minister will do nothing to change the status quo. She can't overcome a powerful entrenched lobby group who take taxpayers money with very little to show for all the money spent - $30 billion a year.
The countless funded lobby group know that if the gap is fixed, then all these people become unemployed.

The estimated cost of the referendum is $450 million. A lot of taxpayers money gets pissed up against the wall like money grows on trees. Could have employed 400 Special Needs Teachers for an entire decade

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-...ions/102878560

Very little money gets to the remote centres. Have you seen photos of these poor communities? It's awful

Next step should be an Federal audit of what money is being pissed up against the wall. But don't hold your breath for the current Albanese party to initiate the audit

We all want the Gap fixed. Clean up the swamp first

I predict on referendum day that the Australian public will reject the proposal in most states
It's not a vote against a Voice. It's a vote against a Committee that is unproven, by a PM who is usually not good on details (such as the interest rate or reading the Uluru statement, the basis of the YES case - he admits he can't be bothered reading it)

"It's all about the vibe" is a quote from the film 'The Castle'. It doesn't stand up when debating a national referendum

[frisson]

In the event of failure, I volunteer to be the Voice. Just give me the phone numbers of the boss man or woman from every remote community and I'll ring them every couple of months and ask what they most need to improve their lives. For equipment I'll only need a notebook and pen beside the phone to make a checklist.

So that I am a literal Voice I'll record the results on a cassette deck and post it registered to parliament every couple of months - geared to self-destruct in five seconds. But don't worry if you don't get it all down because there will be a new updated cassette in a couple of months and there is bound to be plenty of repetition on them anyway.

For the rest of it I'll collect my 500K a year salary, and save them the odd 400 mill it will otherwise cost.

Sounds like a post from an actual bureaucrat

I support you in your career ambition. At least you are honest in telling everyone you want a big cut of money for yourself. Just like the rest of lobbyists who take money but the gap doesn't change

I bet there are bureaucrats earning $250000 + per year getting rich without fixing the gap. Fixing the gap makes them unemployed

Congrats for being honest

[frisson]

Don't accept any misinformation that Australians don't care or are racist

August 2022:
Several opinion polls suggest up to two-thirds of Australians support the Voice – Essential (65 per cent), JWS Research (65 per cent) and Resolve (63 per cent)

Then Australians looked at the contract and there were NO details

Indigenous lady Jacinta Nampijinpa Price:
"Australians will say No to division within our constitution along the lines of race, they will said No to the gaslighting, bullying, to the manipulation”.

“They will No to fruitless and futile victimhood, grievance and the push from activists to suggest that we are a racist country when we are absolutely not a racist country”

[ReginaldBubbles]

The Federal Indigenous Minister will do nothing to change the status quo. She can't overcome a powerful entrenched lobby group who take taxpayers money with very little to show for all the money spent - $30 billion a year.


This figure gets quoted as if it's an extra 30 bill just for Indeigenous people when it includes money that's spent on services all Australians receive. It's not 30 bill being thrown at "lobby groups" who piss it up the wall on champpagne lunches.

[ReginaldBubbles]

Don't accept any misinformation that Australians don't care or are racist

August 2022:
Several opinion polls suggest up to two-thirds of Australians support the Voice – Essential (65 per cent), JWS Research (65 per cent) and Resolve (63 per cent)

Then Australians looked at the contract and there were NO details

Indigenous lady Jacinta Nampijinpa Price:
"Australians will say No to division within our constitution along the lines of race, they will said No to the gaslighting, bullying, to the manipulation”.

“They will No to fruitless and futile victimhood, grievance and the push from activists to suggest that we are a racist country when we are absolutely not a racist country”

I'd go through why the no detail argument is bullshit but I've done it too many times. Either people latched onto it as an excuse or they have no understanding of civics and how the constitution and parliament works or both. Either way, the no side ran a successful negative campaign and yes was never gonna happen with that kind of blatant political partisanship. And yes they used a couple of indigenous spokespeople so they can be quoted opposing the majority community opinion. Let's see how much they're listened to now that the referendum is over.

[ReginaldBubbles]

And $450 million is not that much in the scheme of things. During covid the LNP gave actual tens of billions to companies who made profits and even record profits. Imagine what could've been done with that.

[ReginaldBubbles]

Indigenous lady Jacinta Nampijinpa Price:
"Australians will say No to division within our constitution along the lines of race, they will said No to the gaslighting, bullying, to the manipulation”.

“They will No to fruitless and futile victimhood, grievance and the push from activists to suggest that we are a racist country when we are absolutely not a racist country”

This is why the LNP wheeled her out. Here's another quote from an individual indigenous gentleman, Noel Pearson.

“By all means, blame us. But give us a say in the decisions that are made about us before you do.
This is the message of the voice. By having a voice, we will be responsible for closing the gap. We will be as responsible as the government for the results. With power will come responsibility.”

Missed opportunity.

[johnny]

‘No’ vote wins 60-40. It’s over

[fted]

Just to expand on the previous reply, indigenous people are not the only people living in third world conditions in this country, who will be the voice to Parliament for those people in our democracy?
But were they here when the English claimed Terra Nullius?

[fted]

I fail to see how it can be said the Indigenous don't have a voice. Can you quote how many indigenous lobby groups in Canberra are already directly interacting with Fed Government policy makers, in a formal capacity

I can Google the exact number if you need
I'm sure you're taking the piss, as I think everyone knows that some lobby groups are more equal than others.

[GoldfishMan]

Meh, what a waste of time. All this energy spent on debating, to come up with essentially nothing. Time to move on...

[frisson]

And $450 million cost of this referendum is not that much in the scheme of things. During covid the LNP gave actual tens of billions to companies who made profits and even record profits. Imagine what could've been done with that.
Respect your opinion
I humbly have the opposing view

$450 million could have employed 450 Special Needs Teachers for an entire decade

It's amazing how wasted taxpayers money of millions of dollars can be seen by some as not a lot of money. Every dollar wasted is a dollar not spent on food for disadvantaged indigenous children, or money that could be spent on indigenous teachers or nurses or welfare workers

[Double_Adapter]

Albo's $450m referendum delivered 4 things;
no information, misinformation, disinformation, & fuck all..... the cunt has to go.

[AHLUNGOR]

Will that CBJ referendum cost $450 million like the current Albanese referendum?

Just imagine how many punts that amount of money can provide for Australian punters.

More than one punt per punter?

We have 26 and a bit million people, roughly 50/50 male and female spit. Sorry girls, I know some of you punt too, just for argument sake, let’s just talk about the dicks on this occasion.

So 13 million males, say the sexually active ages are between 18 and 68 give and take , are around 50% of the population = 6.5 million. One third of them are punters = 3 million.

So that $450 million can give each punter one RnT session of a cheap fuck for 30 min - in balls part, punt intended…… haha

Wonder what the horny chicks will say about that ?

Cheers

[AHLUNGOR]

In a more serious note, I think Jacinta Price has stood up during this Voice campaign and a breath of fresh air. Let’s hope when the Coalition returns to government she will take over the ministry of Aboriginal Affairs and do some real good things for her people.

Cheers

[refokkused]

We have 26 and a bit million people, roughly 50/50 male and female spit. Sorry girls, I know some of you punt too, just for argument sake, let’s just talk about the dicks on this occasion.

So 13 million males, say the sexually active ages are between 18 and 68 give and take , are around 50% of the population = 6.5 million. One third of them are punters = 3 million.

So that $450 million can give each punter one RnT session of a cheap fuck for 30 min - in balls part, punt intended…… haha

Wonder what the horny chicks will say about that ?

Cheers

haha bro you really thought that one through, do you keep an excel sheet too ?

[frisson]

In a more serious note, I think Jacinta Price has stood up during this Voice campaign and a breath of fresh air. Let’s hope when the Coalition returns to government she will take over the ministry of Aboriginal Affairs and do some real good things for her people.

Cheers

Ever considered leading the country Ahlungor. You have a very balanced view of the world

[Double_Adapter]

And $450 million is not that much in the scheme of things. During covid the LNP gave actual tens of billions to companies who made profits and even record profits. Imagine what could've been done with that.

There's a bigger problem you are failing to see.
The planet has 8 billion inhabitants.
Covid has killed an estimated 6 million people across the planet.
$14 trillion USD was spent worldwide to deal with this man made virus.
And what do we have to show for the $14 trillion?.....Fuck All!

Never ever blindly believe what Governments, education, media, science, religions, lobby groups, world health organisations, politicians etc etc tell you! They are the modern day pied pipers and the people are the rats.

Question everything (use the 7 Why's analysis) and evenyually you'll get to the truth, and when you find the truth... it'll be ugly.

[frisson]

There's a bigger problem you are failing to see.
The planet has 8 billion inhabitants.
Covid has killed an estimated 6 million people across the planet.
$14 trillion USD was spent worldwide to deal with this man made virus.
And what do we have to show for the $14 trillion?.....Fuck All!

Never ever blindly believe what Governments, education, media, science, religions, lobby groups, world health organisations, politicians etc etc tell you! They are the modern day pied pipers and the people are the rats.

Question everything (use the 7 Why's analysis) and evenyually you'll get to the truth, and when you find the truth... it'll be ugly.
Agree. With this referendum, the Australian public did not accept what they were being told.

Australians took notice of what a first term PM sincerely felt, but they weren't sure about what Voice structure they were creating with a Yes vote.

There should have been a seeking of common ground between parties, a considered and not rushed Constitution Convention consulting widely with an entire country that wants a closure of the Gap

Instead the PM has to wear this result - six of six states voting No is a damning defeat

Australians are fair minded but not easily persuaded by empty gestures. Australians want substance after decades of challenges closing the gap

Appealing to "The vibe" just doesn't work

Let's enact the Voice by legislation, and see if it works and has no unintended consequences such as challenges to the High Court and disruptions to the Executive government doing it's work

[Double_Adapter]

The whole referendum was a farce from the beginning, the government arrogantly misread public sentiment from indigenous communities and middle class Australia....people have been disenfranchised, struggling to put food on the table and paying bills and the government is going off on a wild goose chase, frivolously throwing away money like there's no fucken tomorrow.

The only reason some large corporates (eg qantas et al) got behind the YEP campaign was because they were returning the favour after being propped by the government during Covid or wanted to be seen as being socially responsible.
As far as I'm concerned pied piper Albo and his Qantas mate Joyce can both go and get fucked; one for fucking up Qantas and the other for dividing Australia.

[ColesBag]

https://modernenquirer.substack.com/p/defeated-voice-is-a-wake-up-call

In a resounding defeat, the Voice to Parliament referendum has spoken loudly, and its message cannot be ignored.

While celebrities and Fortune 500 companies expected this initiative to be embraced with open arms, it became clear that the vision of inner-city elites was not as universally appealing as they assumed.

The referendum's outcome served as a stark reminder that the voices of indigenous Australians will not be used as ideological tools in a perverted culture war.

Inner-city progressives, have for too long, dominated the conversation around indigenous issues in Australia, perpetuating a self-righteous stance that portrays Aboriginals as pawns to be used against their political adversaries.

The prevalence of virtue signaling and the exploitation of social or political issues for personal gain has regrettably become a prevailing norm in Australian discourse, casting a shadow over sincere endeavors to tackle the complex and enduring challenges confronting indigenous communities.

Many individuals, corporations, and politicians found it more convenient to publicly align themselves with the Voice, including those related to indigenous rights, by moralising to the Australian public, without making any substantial contributions to real solutions.

In their quest for political correctness and public approval, these moralists reduced the complex, multifaceted challenges to simplistic, ideological narratives that divided the country. They portrayed indigenous Australians as passive victims who need to be rescued, rather than acknowledging their agency and resilience.

This oversimplification objectified indigenous people, treating them as instruments to advance personal or political agendas, rather than as individuals with their own diverse experiences, voices, and needs.

The manipulation of these issues for political gain diluted the authenticity of the discourse and fostered deep skepticism among the Yes campaign. Indigenous communities, who have long been marginalized and disenfranchised, refused to be caught in the crossfire of these political battles.

The "Yes" campaign's relentless pursuit of a positive outcome, while simultaneously stigmatising those with opposing views as racists, undeniably played a pivotal role in its ultimate failure. This approach proved detrimental in several ways.

Firstly, by characterizing dissenters as inherently racist, the campaign oversimplified a multifaceted and deeply rooted issue. It failed to acknowledge that genuine concerns, cultural differences, and diverse perspectives exist within the debate. In doing so, it alienated potential allies who might have supported the cause had their concerns been genuinely heard and addressed.

Secondly, the reductionist rhetoric created a climate of fear and intimidation, discouraging open and honest discussions. Many individuals were hesitant to express their reservations or seek clarification, fearing social or professional backlash. This environment stifled the free exchange of ideas and hindered the campaign's ability to address the concerns and questions of those who might have been receptive to a "Yes" vote with a more nuanced approach.

The campaign's divisive tactics led to a polarization of the debate. It framed the issue as a stark "Us vs. Them" scenario, contributing to heightened tensions and resistance to compromise. As a result, meaningful dialogue and the exploration of potential common ground were obstructed.

The "Yes" campaign's strategy of branding dissenting voices as racist not only oversimplified a complex issue but also created a hostile atmosphere, stifled constructive dialogue, and deepened divisions. These factors significantly contributed to the campaign's ultimate failure to secure its objective, underscoring the importance of a more inclusive and nuanced approach when addressing complex societal issues.

The 'Voice' proposition, which was presented as a panacea for indigenous issues, proved to be misleading and tone-deaf to the real plight of indigenous communities.

The rejection from regions with the largest indigenous populations is a testament to this fact.

Child abuse, a pressing issue in indigenous communities, remains a harsh and unfortunate reality. This problem extends far beyond just the physical abuse; it encompasses neglect, emotional abuse, and a lack of resources for affected children. The Voice to Parliament referendum offered no concrete measures to combat child abuse, leaving indigenous children vulnerable and unheard.

Squalid living conditions are another major concern that the 'Yes' campaign seemed to downplay. In some communities, indigenous families live in overcrowded, inadequate housing, with limited access to clean water and proper sanitation. Instead of focusing on addressing these immediate needs, the referendum appeared more interested in creating a bureaucratic entity fuelled by ideological division.

Rape and sexual violence have plagued many indigenous communities for far too long. The 'Voice' proposal failed to address the need for increased law enforcement presence and resources to combat these issues effectively. Indigenous women and girls deserve better than lip service; they need genuine support and protection from these heinous crimes.

Malnourishment and poverty are pervasive problems in indigenous communities, and they have dire consequences for health and well-being. The referendum's defeat is a testament to the inadequacy of the proposed solution to tackle these fundamental issues. What indigenous Australians need are initiatives focused on providing nutritious food, better education, and employment opportunities, not an abstract 'Voice' to Parliament.

The relationship between poverty and crime is undeniable, and indigenous communities are not exempt from this harsh reality. While urban progressives were busy championing their vision of a utopia, they seemed to overlook the fact that economic opportunities are the most effective way to reduce crime rates.

Rather than focusing on creating yet another bureaucratic layer, genuine support should be directed towards helping indigenous Australians access education and employment.

The 'Yes' campaign's pitch was centered on the notion that the Voice to Parliament would bring forth sweeping change, yet it failed to address the immediate and pressing issues that indigenous Australians grapple with every day. How can an elaborate, and highly confusing, bureaucratic structure solve the crises of child abuse, rape, malnourishment, and poverty that continue to plague indigenous communities? The answer is, it cannot.

Indigenous Australians are not interested in lofty, idealistic rhetoric; they need practical solutions. They need action on the ground, resources to improve living conditions, and targeted support for healthcare and education. They need meaningful economic opportunities that can uplift them from the cycle of poverty and crime. While inner-city progressives championed the Voice to Parliament, they have shown themselves to be out of touch with reality.

The rejection of the referendum does not signify a lack of support for indigenous voices; rather, it underscores the rejection of an ineffective, top-down approach built on racial segregation that fails to address the root causes of indigenous suffering.

The defeat of the referendum is a wake-up call for inner-city progressives to realign their moral compasses and start engaging with reality.

====

[GoldfishMan]

Would be interesting to see the actual number of Yes or No votes instead of by electorate. Anybody know where I can find that stat?

[Ziggurat]

Yes voters should take solace. You can’t achieve a 61% to 39% split without being the beneficiary of a vast amount of collective wisdom of literally millions of reasonable people. Except for the hard casers, Yes voters will come to realise that.

It comes down to “hands off our fucking constitution.” For good reasons have Australians over the past hundred years have had to be mightily convinced to change it. It is nothing to do with being influenced by the US, we already put a great value on our constitution.

[Vincent888]

To quote an expression:

“Trouble is, some people won’t take NO for an answer”.

[GoldfishMan]

I must admit, I am completely confused with how this referendum works. I even do not understand how the media coverage works.
I know that, for it to pass, it needs a "double majority", ie. a National Majority which is a simple count of Yes / No votes nationally regardless of electorate, and a majority of states to have voted for one way or another.

So 2 questions come to mind:
1. Why is the media coverage going on and on about the results by electorate, as if it was an election? Is it not a National count?
2. With an even number of states, what would've happened if there was a tie? That's highly likely with an even number of states.

Genuinely curious about how referendums work in this country because this is actually the first time I'm participating in one.

[Vincent888]

I’m guessing places like Newtown, Marrickville etc voted Yes

I’d like to see the suburban breakdown.

[GoldfishMan]

I’m guessing places like Newtown, Marrickville etc voted Yes

I’d like to see the suburban breakdown.

You wouldn't be too far off. Take a look at this article, doesn't go by suburb, but Sydney metro area is majority Yes:
https://www.news.com.au/national/politics/the-voice-referendum-live-updates/news-story/3d6d514a6d9685b7997f8aa3e8cfac54

[Vincent888]

Sydney metro… they have enough bicycle lanes. What more do they want?


https://content.api.news/v3/images/bin/c22842c97918c3b775627efa1e1c09cc

Albo preaching to the converted.

[ReginaldBubbles]

You wouldn't be too far off. Take a look at this article, doesn't go by suburb, but Sydney metro area is majority Yes:
https://www.news.com.au/national/politics/the-voice-referendum-live-updates/news-story/3d6d514a6d9685b7997f8aa3e8cfac54

There's no results for individual suburbs, just electorates.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/ng-interactive/2023/oct/15/how-did-your-area-vote-in-the-voice-referendum-check-out-our-interactive-map

[frisson]

https://modernenquirer.substack.com/p/defeated-voice-is-a-wake-up-call

In a resounding defeat, the Voice to Parliament referendum has spoken loudly, and its message cannot be ignored.

It became clear that the vision of inner-city elites was not as universally appealing as they assumed.

The referendum's outcome served as a stark reminder that the voices of indigenous Australians will not be used as ideological tools in a perverted culture war.

Inner-city progressives, have for too long, dominated the conversation around indigenous issues in Australia, perpetuating a self-righteous stance that portrays Aboriginals as pawns to be used against their political adversaries.

The prevalence of virtue signaling and the exploitation of social or political issues for personal gain has regrettably become a prevailing norm in Australian discourse, casting a shadow over sincere endeavors to tackle the complex and enduring challenges confronting indigenous communities.

They portrayed indigenous Australians as passive victims who need to be rescued, rather than acknowledging their agency and resilience.

The reductionist rhetoric created a climate of fear and intimidation, discouraging open and honest discussions. Many individuals were hesitant to express their reservations or seek clarification, fearing social or professional backlash. This environment stifled the free exchange of ideas and hindered the campaign's ability to address the concerns and questions of those who might have been receptive to a "Yes" vote with a more nuanced approach.

The "Yes" campaign's strategy of branding dissenting voices as racist not only oversimplified a complex issue but also created a hostile atmosphere, stifled constructive dialogue, and deepened divisions. These factors significantly contributed to the campaign's ultimate failure to secure its objective, underscoring the importance of a more inclusive and nuanced approach when addressing complex societal issues.

The Voice to Parliament referendum offered no concrete measures to combat child abuse, leaving indigenous children vulnerable and unheard.

Squalid living conditions are another major concern that the 'Yes' campaign seemed to downplay. In some communities, indigenous families live in overcrowded, inadequate housing, with limited access to clean water and proper sanitation. Instead of focusing on addressing these immediate needs, the referendum appeared more interested in creating a bureaucratic entity fuelled by ideological division.

Rather than focusing on creating yet another bureaucratic layer, genuine support should be directed towards helping indigenous Australians access education and employment.

The 'Yes' campaign's pitch was centered on the notion that the Voice to Parliament would bring forth sweeping change, yet it failed to address the immediate and pressing issues that indigenous Australians grapple with every day. How can an elaborate, and highly confusing, bureaucratic structure solve the crises of child abuse, rape, malnourishment, and poverty that continue to plague indigenous communities? The answer is, it cannot.

Indigenous Australians are not interested in lofty, idealistic rhetoric; they need practical solutions. They need action on the ground, resources to improve living conditions, and targeted support for healthcare and education. They need meaningful economic opportunities that can uplift them from the cycle of poverty and crime. While inner-city progressives championed the Voice to Parliament, they have shown themselves to be out of touch with reality
====

Thank you colesbag

That is a devastatingly real description of the elites and how they continued to gloss over major issues with our respected and disadvantaged indigenous. I'm speechless

Those paragraphs should be in the constitution

This articulate writer just outlined the entire playbook of the vocal lobbyists who preach but never solve. We are now much more free, as their grip is lessened

Everyone in our wonderful country has a valued opinion. This opinion is hard to argue against

Let's all ask more and more questions about Closing the Gap. We should have an annual announcement about which education or health or other criteria is falling behind, and the Minister for that area must stand up and be accountable

[Double_Adapter]

Why the fuck do you guys want to rub salt on an open wound?

For what it's worth, click on state, then electorate and that will display all the suburbs associated with that electorate.

https://www.pollbludger.net/fed2023ref/Results/

[Double_Adapter]

Thank you colesbag

That is a devastatingly real description of the elites and how they continued to gloss over major issues with our respected and disadvantaged indigenous. I'm speechless

Those paragraphs should be in the constitution

This articulate writer just outlined the entire playbook of the vocal lobbyists who preach but never solve. We are now much more free, as their grip is lessened

Everyone in our wonderful country has a valued opinion. This opinion is hard to argue against

Let's all ask more and more questions about Closing the Gap. We should have an annual announcement about which education or health or other criteria is falling behind, and the Minister for that area must stand up and be accountable

I wonder why they opted for a referendum and not a plebiscite?
Was Albo so fucken arrogant and/or confident that he would get the nod!

[frisson]

I wonder why they opted for a referendum and not a plebiscite?
Was Albo so fucken arrogant and/or confident that he would get the nod!

The PM was in the grip of these out of touch activists who have been working on the detail for 8 years. He is proving to be a lightweight leader who has no strength on details

I bet he got carried away with The Vibe

As the referendum results showed, most of the country wasn't persuaded by the lack of information

There was a sense of suspicion as well, that the Voice was connected to the popular issue of indigenous recognition in the constitution, so sneaking in 2 issues instead of the latter one we all wanted to vote Yes for

[ReginaldBubbles]

Why the fuck do you guys want to rub salt on an open wound?

For what it's worth, click on state, then electorate and that will display all the suburbs associated with that electorate.

https://www.pollbludger.net/fed2023ref/Results/

thanks, didn't realise that info was available

[ReginaldBubbles]

I wonder why they opted for a referendum and not a plebiscite?
Was Albo so fucken arrogant and/or confident that he would get the nod!

Because a plebiscite isn't binding. we only had one for same sex marriage because Turnbull was too spineless to just legislate it because his party didn't support it.

[ReginaldBubbles]

Thank you colesbag

That is a devastatingly real description of the elites and how they continued to gloss over major issues with our respected and disadvantaged indigenous. I'm speechless

Those paragraphs should be in the constitution

This articulate writer just outlined the entire playbook of the vocal lobbyists who preach but never solve. We are now much more free, as their grip is lessened

Everyone in our wonderful country has a valued opinion. This opinion is hard to argue against

Let's all ask more and more questions about Closing the Gap. We should have an annual announcement about which education or health or other criteria is falling behind, and the Minister for that area must stand up and be accountable

What is an "elite"? Are Dutton, Price and Mundine elites?

[frisson]

What is an "elite"? Are Dutton, Price and Mundine elites?

Elites are those academics / professors and paid lobbyists, that are directly paid in the indigenous field, who comment on Indigenous misery in the last 20 years and have changed nothing
They far outdate the recent politicians that you mention

[frisson]

To everyone concerned about the welfare of the indigenous

This indigenous No supporter today, absolutely took down the media who fail to report on the poverty in remote indigenous communities, and left them speechless

He tears strips off those that seek to trivialise the problem

Well done

https://youtu.be/_av7coHxye4?feature=shared

[ReginaldBubbles]

Elites are those academics / professors and paid lobbyists, that are directly paid in the indigenous field, who comment on Indigenous misery in the last 20 years and have changed nothing
They far outdate the recent politicians that you mention

They are the ones that continue to be employed and be paid for their services while the Gap persists. Their dirty secret is that their niche and job security vanishes if the Gap is addressed

They are the outspoken who called people racist or stupid, and continually implied that Indigenous disadvantage was the direct fault of the average Australian

Anyone who has followed this issue knows those elites that sought to belittle the average Australian, most of whom barely manage with cost of living themselves

Oh for fucks sake. Those people do not work and comment on these areas for the money. You really think they want the gap to persist so they have a job? And what power do they have to actually change anything other than point out the facts in the hope that the actual elites will listen? They're not blaming the average Australian, they're pointing out the institutional racism that exists, not individual's actions.

So the politician's I mentioned aren't elites? And it's beside the point but do you know how long Dutton and Mundine have been around?

[frisson]

Oh for fucks sake. Those people do not work and comment on these areas for the money. You really think they want the gap to persist so they have a job? And what power do they have to actually change anything other than point out the facts in the hope that the actual elites will listen? They're not blaming the average Australian, they're pointing out the institutional racism that exists, not individual's actions.

So the politician's I mentioned aren't elites? And it's beside the point but do you know how long Dutton and Mundine have been around?

It's clear we have different opinions. That may reflect we both have valid points. All the best to you

But the referendum was poorly constructed and the people have spoken. The elites have been humbled, that's one thing I am sure of

Many elites today have said they will stand down - no need to mention names as this is not a time to put people down personally

The elites are not elected politicians. If it needs to be explained more, then maybe it's a topic you will never agree with anyway

Glad the Australian people ignored the elites, their grip is a lot less secure now. Lets now demand the media report closely on progress in Closing the Gap

[ReginaldBubbles]

To everyone concerned about the welfare of the indigenous

This indigenous No supporter today, absolutely took down the media who fail to report on the poverty in remote indigenous communities, and left them speechless

He tears strips off those that seek to trivialise the problem

Well done

https://youtu.be/_av7coHxye4?feature=shared

What a load of shit.The voice to parliament would have done something to address the issues he mentioned. What is he actually suggesting be done instead? And somehow asking Jacinta Price what she means by saying the electoral commission and unions attempted to manipulate the vote in Aboriginal communities isn't a valid question? One indigenou no supporter does not represent the majority of indigenous yes voters. But the LNP used Mundine and Price to have that appearance.

[frisson]

What a load of shit.The voice to parliament would have done something to address the issues he mentioned. What is he actually suggesting be done instead? And somehow asking Jacinta Price what she means by saying the electoral commission and unions attempted to manipulate the vote in Aboriginal communities isn't a valid question? One indigenou no supporter does not represent the majority of indigenous yes voters. But the LNP used Mundine and Price to have that appearance.

Well done Warren Mundine, you put the press and indirectly the elites in their place for not focussing on the most disadvantaged. Very passionate plea to pay attention to some unpalatable truths

[Vincent888]

This thread could be a never ending story.

[pornonporn]

Why do we need a voice to fix things instead of just fixing things

[Vincent888]

Why do we need a voice to fix things instead of just fixing things

Good Question. Why?

[frisson]

Why do we need a voice to fix things instead of just fixing things

Great question and the answer is a dirty little secret

Exactly as you say, there are some who have spent 20-40 years saying they are the experts and only a Voice will Close the Gap

They are informally referred to as the Elites. They don't want to fix the problem. They want to create a committee. Many past committees have failed

The Elites are a group of people (not politicians) who think their way is the only way to fix the problem

Elites are those academics / professors and paid lobbyists, that are directly paid in the indigenous field, who comment on Indigenous misery in the last 20 years and have changed nothing
They outlast politicians who usually get voted out, and so the Elites remain and pretend to be the saviours. Don't try to question them, they feel they are the morally and often intellectually superior

They are the ones that continue to be employed and be paid for their services while the Gap persists. Their dirty secret is that their niche and job security vanishes if the Gap is addressed

The Voice would have costed millions of dollars, I can promise you
Guess who gets that money?
The Elites!
That right, they lobby to be the members of the Voice committee, which is just another new Committee
Im not making this stuff up

[ReginaldBubbles]

Good Question. Why?

Because historically the people affected by the policies haven't been listened to. It's just been actual elites paternally deciding what these people need without understanding the cultural differences, historical generational trauma and institutional racism (not talking about individual
Australian's attitudes here).

And I'm pretty sure millionaire Warren Mundine is more "elite" than anyone on an academics salary.

[ReginaldBubbles]

It's clear we have different opinions. That may reflect we both have valid points. All the best to you

But the referendum was poorly constructed and the people have spoken. The elites have been humbled, that's one thing I am sure of

Many elites today have said they will stand down - no need to mention names as this is not a time to put people down personally

The elites are not elected politicians. If it needs to be explained more, then maybe it's a topic you will never agree with anyway

Glad the Australian people ignored the elites, their grip is a lot less secure now. Lets now demand the media report closely on progress in Closing the Gap

We have different opinions and that's obviously not going to change. But the real "elites" won on the day. Tell me that Barnaby Joyce is just an average Aussie bloke and not an elite.

[frisson]

We have different opinions and that's obviously not going to change. But the real "elites" won on the day. Tell me that Barnaby Joyce is just an average Aussie bloke and not an elite.
You keep needing to mention names of people to explain the defeat of the Voice

The majority of Australians didn't engage with this referendum until this week. It was introduced at a time where cost of living is everyones only concern

Murdoch, Joyce, all these names are just excuses

Best off reflecting why the PMs message cut through so poorly, otherwise you are just digging for more excuses

The PM was about as persuasive as a salesman wanting to sell you a DVD player. What a disastrous effort he made at convincing literally zero of six states. Why don't you now starting talking about this poor effort instead of blaming others?

For the sake of Australia I hope everything he touches doesn't turn to sh-t. He lacks real world experience

[pornonporn]

Because historically the people affected by the policies haven't been listened to. It's just been actual elites paternally deciding what these people need without understanding the cultural differences, historical generational trauma and institutional racism (not talking about individual
Australian's attitudes here).

And I'm pretty sure millionaire Warren Mundine is more "elite" than anyone on an academics salary.


If they weren't listened to then,
Why would they be listened to a voice

[ReginaldBubbles]

You keep needing to mention names of people to explain the defeat of the Voice

[/b]

You sure quote Mundine and Price a lot for someone who thinks mentioning names is somehow irrelevant.

[ReginaldBubbles]

You keep needing to mention names of people to explain the defeat of the Voice

[/b]
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/in-referendums-manufactured-doubt-always-kills-the-mood-for-change-20231015-p5ecd0.html

[dotcumdotinyou]

You should give up frisson, no matter how eloquently you put forward an argument the looniest of the loony left will ALWAYS find someone else to blame. They did a break down in the news last night and showed that the latte sippers in the inner suburbs of Sydney voted yes, where as the outer suburbs - LABOUR HEARTLAND - voted no.

Ask Reggie why the true believers voted no and his reply would be "they all read Murdoch's papers". So Reggie's argument is that all labour voters are gullible, but the truth is they voted no because they weren't given all the information.

[frisson]

You should give up frisson, no matter how eloquently you put forward an argument the looniest of the loony left will ALWAYS find someone else to blame. They did a break down in the news last night and showed that the latte sippers in the inner suburbs of Sydney voted yes, where as the outer suburbs - LABOUR HEARTLAND - voted no.

Ask Reggie why the true believers voted no and his reply would be "they all read Murdoch's papers". So Reggie's argument is that all labour voters are gullible, but the truth is they voted no because they weren't given all the information.

Debate is good. Still waiting for excuses to cease and some substance be presented as to why Australia should have voted Yes with an untested Voice model that Noone, Noone, understood

Read the debate here carefully - not once do Yes advocates give details about the model. Would there be protests to the High Court if the Voice wasn't followed on a certain issue?

No matter how much the Yes want to blame someone else - Murdoch, Joyce etc, watch carefully - they never support their own spokespeople
Why. Because the Yes spokespeople were totally ignored by the Australian public

Who was the Federal Indigenous Affairs Minister who was one of the strongest Yes campaigners ? Who cares. Her own electorate, Barton, voted No. She was ignored. I'm not making this stuff up

Most Australians made up their mind by listening to their heart. The PMs message was as clear as dirty dishwater

It's been fun. Hope you found it entertaining too. Welcome your opinion.

I discussed the No campaigners because they were potent debaters. Mundine and Price wiped the floor of their Yes opponents

Six states voted No

The End

[frisson]

Everyone...
Another dirty secret:
If the Voice is such a good idea, then the PM can easily enact it now
Did you know that the Voice doesn't need the Constitution? It can be brought in with legislation. No need for a constitution. This is Fact

But it does need millions of dollars to pay Elites to be on yet another Canberra based committee that doesn't get it's hands dirty

However the Elites wanted an untested system to be permanently put in the Constitution. So the referendum was rejected for this reason

Does anyone else have the facts to explain why the Australian public voted wrongly in the Referendum? Actually give some information that addresses the concerns that led Australia to vote No. And don't mention the Left or the Right or Murdoch or call people racist or stupid. Debate the topic alone

The alternative is to now hold the relevant ministers now very closely accountable to all the Gaps including the crime in the Northern Territory. And hold the media to account so they regularly report on the progress being made on the Gap

[GoldfishMan]

Why the fuck do you guys want to rub salt on an open wound?

For what it's worth, click on state, then electorate and that will display all the suburbs associated with that electorate.

https://www.pollbludger.net/fed2023ref/Results/

Thanks bro, was looking for that!

[Vincent888]

Because historically the people affected by the policies haven't been listened to. It's just been actual elites paternally deciding what these people need without understanding the cultural differences, historical generational trauma and institutional racism (not talking about individual
Australian's attitudes here).

And I'm pretty sure millionaire Warren Mundine is more "elite" than anyone on an academics salary.

Nothing wrong with Warren Mundine he’s an achiever.

[Soccerfan]

What a cunt of a take. The No campaign had zero facts. They relied on lies, disinformation and preyed on people’s fears. There will be a land grab, by Rinehart, Palmer etc. they poured millions into the No vote, I wonder why.
Have some compassion, I hope some people here never have a life altering event that means they have to rely on social services or charities just to exist.
And indigenous Australians in remote areas voted overwhelmingly for the Yes vote. Also data is showing that the No vote was primarily from poor socioeconomic area with limited education and training.

Way to brag dumb cunts.

[Soccerfan]

All the No vote campaign did was to provide an excuse for people to vote No. People who didn’t want to see others get ahead. Plain and simple.

[Soccerfan]

I do agree that the yes campaign was diabolical. As soon as I saw the drag queen go on the stage in London, I knew it was over. It’s unbelievable how wrong they got it. I also get a sense that it was too personal for Albanese, or he wanted it to be his legacy. Fancy ignoring the masses.

[priapus1966]

No-one won. All the problems will still be there this Monday morning. Neither side of the issue has concrete ideas other than to impose their so called Centralized solutions from the Canberra Bubble. The indigenous people will have to fight for themselves, traditional politics will not deliver, so expect the fight to get pretty nasty. Meanwhile the best the rest of us can do is shut up and seek solace in our preferred orifices.

[thefatness]

The only disinformation is the yes campaign trying to deceive the Australian public as to the true motives of this voice which is treaty and truth telling.

And what does treaty mean? Pay the rent of course, reparations. Too much money is already wasted, I don’t want to pay the rent or reparations to the 10th generation descendants of the true victims.

And if you don’t believe me, there’s plenty of proof online from earlier comments made before labor took government by some of the key architects of the voice

[Soccerfan]

You’re right. I don’t believe you. It was an advisory body. What a cooker.

The best legal minds in the country endorsed The Voice. Probably those with the most to lose and they still gave it the thumbs up. Where’s your evidence cooker? Steer clear of those 5G towers huh?

[thefatness]

Prime example again of why the yes campaign lost. Drop the attacks on the voters, stop treating those that disagree with you with disdain and respectfully address the points made in the argument.

An advisory body? Why not legislate it? Labor has the numbers to pass it through both houses. Why enshrine it in the constitution?

If you look at what Thomas Mayo has had to say in all his activism and wisdom, you’d know that the intention was to have a constitutionally protected voice that can make representations to the government and request the government to consider a treaty with this voice committee which would supposedly be representative of all aboriginal communities.

https://youtu.be/SMy3wcP9g8g?si=HnLLGb-10Yj8gDXe

I could also make the argument two former high court judges have publicly stated their concerns around the voice’s overreach Ian Callinan and Murray Gleeson.

End of the day the Australian public has overwhelmingly rejected this proposal and so a new path forward should be the focus to address the problems indigenous people face.

[Meng]

Putting each person's opinions aside. Let's look at some stats on the demographic that voted yes or no. Check this report out:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-15/voice-results-explained-map/102978520

Here's some stats:
- Rural people are more likely to vote no vs city people who would vote yes
- The less educated a person is they're more likely to vote no
- older people tended to vote no vs younger who preferred to vote yes.
- higher income also tended to vote no (most likely cause they thought the whole paying rent thing would take their land away lol).

Again don't really give a shit even though I did vote.

[Soccerfan]

71 Uni teachers in constitutional law rebutted Ian’s ideas in a signed open letter saying the pros far outweigh the cons. I’m
paraphrasing.

[thefatness]

Perhaps these uni teachers were right. But I saw what the key architects of the Voice have had to say, and my interpretation was that it was not just an advisory body but a trojan horse to introduce treaty and force the government of the day to consider it as the constitution would protect the voice. It might start of as an advisory body but it’s clear that the architects had higher aspirations for the voice and its powers.
My evidence is there.

[Soccerfan]

It might be true that the architects wanted more powers (interestingly, this is why some indigenous people voted No saying it didn’t go far enough) but in its current state, is was meant as an advisory body, giving people a say on the issues that affect them. They had no powers, the government would not have been obliged to even take on board their recommendations. To say anything else, I think, is misleading. And that’s the whole issue of why this was a clusterfuck, with both sides bearing responsibility.

[fud]

The people have spoken, the NOs have it and it's time for everyone to come together and have a different path to closing the Gap.

As expected Dutton is walking away from holding another referendum.

Lets see what he, Price & Mundine have as an alternative proposal.

Parliament should be interesting this week.

[thefatness]

It might be true that the architects wanted more powers (interestingly, this is why some indigenous people voted No saying it didn’t go far enough) but in its current state, is was meant as an advisory body, giving people a say on the issues that affect them. They had no powers, the government would not have been obliged to even take on board their recommendations. To say anything else, I think, is misleading. And that’s the whole issue of why this was a clusterfuck, with both sides bearing responsibility.

You have to ask yourself if the government is not obliged to take on their recommendations then what is the point?

Linda Burney is a cabinet minister and is part of the executive, wtf has she done to improve the lives of her people?

I’d bet my bottom dollar that the yes camp have her number, why isn’t she proposing their recommendations to the cabinet?

[GoldfishMan]

Putting each person's opinions aside. Let's look at some stats on the demographic that voted yes or no. Check this report out:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-15/voice-results-explained-map/102978520

Here's some stats:
- Rural people are more likely to vote no vs city people who would vote yes
- The less educated a person is they're more likely to vote no
- older people tended to vote no vs younger who preferred to vote yes.
- higher income also tended to vote no (most likely cause they thought the whole paying rent thing would take their land away lol).

Again don't really give a shit even though I did vote.

Same here, no point wasting anymore energy on this.
Australia has a track record of only 8/45 successful referendums in all its history. Not a single referendum has been successful in the last 47 years, 0/9 success rate.

It's ironic when you consider those stats with all the complaints that this was a waste of money. What about all those 36 other times? If you don't want to waste the money, then stop keeping voting NO, lol...

[Double_Adapter]

For fucks sake! Get over it and move on. The referendum is over and all the states have unanimously voted NO. Albo had one fucken job to do, get people to write YES on a piece of paper! and the cunt couldn't even get that right !

Right now all the highly paid politicians, experts, thinkers, elites, lobby groups etc must find a solution on how to close the indigenous gap and it's that fucken simple!......and as punters you guys should stop carrying on like pork chops and start focusing on the thigh gaps.

[GoldfishMan]

For fucks sake! Get over it and move on. The referendum is over and all the states have unanimously voted NO. Albo had one fucken job to do, get people to write YES on a piece of paper! and the cunt couldn't even get that right !

Right now all the highly paid politicians, experts, thinkers, elites, lobby groups etc must find a solution on how to close the indigenous gap and it's that fucken simple!......and as punters you guys should stop carrying on like pork chops and start focusing on the thigh gaps.
Are you calling ever PM we've had in the last 47 years a cunt too?

[Double_Adapter]

Anyone who's on $600k pa + additional perks+allowances+housing+security+super+pension etc etc that can't do a simple job right then yes, they should be called a cunt. As for other PMs that have served and come & gone they're not leading the country right now, so they are not under scrutiny.

[faruk]

The result of this was that people don't want the constitution to be changed. That's it. It's not due to racism or anything else. People like and want the status quo as far as the constitution goes.

Imp enough funding and efforts are already dedicated to helping Indigenous people. Maybe it's time they help themselves as well.

[frisson]

An absolute referendum clusterf-ck with $450 million wasted - could have funded 450 Special Needs teachers for a full decade - cannot be accepted without comment, and the comments and analysis keep rolling in

Here is my comment to bring the sides together:

"The PM is very competent and listens and responds to colleagues when he is told his plans are not working.
He is definitely not out of touch with the Australian population.

As a new PM he was confident that everyone was there to support him. He is man of the working class, and the working class in Western Sydney will vote Yes with him, because he is correct about the Vibe

He didn't read the Uluru statement he was promoting for good reasons and that's how he does things. Lots of real world experience with direct jobs in industry and science. Everything he touches works out brilliantly. True statesman who will leave his mark on the world"

[GoldfishMan]

$200m only. $250m will be paid for by the 3,847,000+ registered voters that didn't vote.

[Sharphorse]

Funny how Dutton waited until this referendum campaign to tell us how broken the system is (and has been for years) and how we need an audit into spending on indigenous affairs. He had 9 years as a front bencher in the party in power from 2013-2022 and never attempted to clean the system up then. Do people actually believe anything he says?

[Sharphorse]

$200m only. $250m will be paid for by the 3,847,000+ registered voters that didn't vote.

It’s annoying how much was spent but compare it to the hundreds of billions lost by the Liberals through wrongful Jobkeeper payments that were never recovered and Robodebt and suddenly 450mil is just a bit of loose change

[Vincent888]

Fuck the referendum discussion.

Fuck girls instead!

[madness123]

Yes, Now when I punt, "ill start with a welcome to cuntrey"

[pornonporn]

The yes side kept calling the no side racist and rude names
The no side didn't

The yes side ran a campaign like hillary clinton vs trump
They used celebrities

But celebrities live in a world full of caviar

Where most people just live in a world where they want to not cum in 10 seconds

[frisson]

The yes side kept calling the no side racist and rude names
The no side didn't

The yes side ran a campaign like hillary clinton vs trump
They used celebrities

But celebrities live in a world full of caviar

Where most people just live in a world where they want to not cum in 10 seconds

Pornonporn ! What?

You weren't influenced by the use of the celebrity Shaquille O'Neal by the Yes campaign ? Really?

The Yes campaign was not out of touch at all

Shaquille wanted you to vote Yes because he is from the USA, and he knows about Australia

https://www.9news.com.au/national/anthony-albanese-seeks-support-from-nba-star-shaquille-oneal-for-indigenous-voice-to-parliament-referendum/7ec15791-dcea-4c0c-ab73-b1b2c65dfb26

[ReginaldBubbles]

The yes side kept calling the no side racist and rude names
The no side didn't

The yes side ran a campaign like hillary clinton vs trump
They used celebrities

But celebrities live in a world full of caviar

Where most people just live in a world where they want to not cum in 10 seconds

Just fear and doubt and lies.

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/no-campaign-s-fear-doubt-strategy-revealed-20230910-p5e3fu.html

[ReginaldBubbles]

s
- The less educated a person is they're more likely to vote no


Well that's amazing

[ReginaldBubbles]

Ask Reggie why the true believers voted no and his reply would be "they all read Murdoch's papers". So Reggie's argument is that all labour voters are gullible, but the truth is they voted no because they weren't given all the information.

Dude at least argue against the things I've actually said, don't make it up cumdot.

[ReginaldBubbles]

a trojan horse to introduce treaty and force the government of the day to consider it


Oh no, not considering something!


My evidence is there

Where?

[frisson]

The yes side kept calling the no side racist and rude names
The no side didn't

The yes side ran a campaign like hillary clinton vs trump
They used celebrities

But celebrities live in a world full of caviar

Where most people just live in a world where they want to not cum in 10 seconds
Agree.

The Australian public are now finally saying no and f-ck off to rich, out of touch celebrities telling people how to think or vote
Or out of touch Virtue signallers big rich companies telling the public and their own employees how to think

The Yes message was so vague and history shows that the majority of voters ignored their message

Shaquille O'Neal was one of the many signs that showed the Yes campaign was doomed early on - they were desperate and couldn't present a coherent message to voters. Despite a budget of millions and millions including funds from Qantas and the 4 greedy banks

[Vincent888]

Where most people just live in a world where they want to not cum in 10 seconds

Most probably due to excessive masturbation?

[frisson]

An advisory body? Why not legislate it? Labor has the numbers to pass it through both houses. Why enshrine it in the constitution ?

I suspect the Voice (a committee based in Canberra) won't make a difference and that's why the PM won't introduce it now even though the Federal Government just needs to pass a law to bring it in.

Another dirty secret, the PM had the numbers to start the Voice 18 months ago. He actually could have created a Voice and let it start

But to expect Australians to introduce an untested committee permanently into the Constitution was a silly idea and Australians said No

I'm not making this stuff up!
Wasted opportunity and a massive letdown of our indigenous brothers and sisters

[pornonporn]

Just fear and doubt and lies.

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/no-campaign-s-fear-doubt-strategy-revealed-20230910-p5e3fu.html

There was no lies, fear or doubt

We were sick of being constantly mocked if we chose no

Like Rove said even his 9 year old daughter chooses yes

Makes us think they think we are dumb like a 9 year old


80% of aboriginal wants the voice is a survey from yougov
yougov is the most shittest survey thing

no offense whoever can pass a survey needs to get a life
they give you 2 dollars for 15 minutes of questions

i pressed any button and got 120 dollars out of it
but then they changed the system and made it if you finished it too fast or slow you dont get any money
i took a shit once and came back and got timed out

and also when i did the surveys i identified as aboriginal, jedi, and also a pussy licker

so if you can trust that 80 percent lie then you need to go and stop masturbating it damages your brain cells

[ReginaldBubbles]

There was no lies, fear or doubt

We were sick of being constantly mocked if we chose no

Like Rove said even his 9 year old daughter chooses yes

Makes us think they think we are dumb like a 9 year old


80% of aboriginal wants the voice is a survey from yougov
yougov is the most shittest survey thing

no offense whoever can pass a survey needs to get a life
they give you 2 dollars for 15 minutes of questions

i pressed any button and got 120 dollars out of it
but then they changed the system and made it if you finished it too fast or slow you dont get any money
i took a shit once and came back and got timed out

and also when i did the surveys i identified as aboriginal, jedi, and also a pussy licker

You obviously didn't read the article either and I also don't really know what you're talking about. But if you're saying you would've voted yes but voted no because you felt like Rove was mocking you then I guess the negative no campaign was effective.

[pornonporn]

You obviously didn't read the article either and I also don't really know what you're talking about. But if you're saying you would've voted yes but voted no because you felt like Rove was mocking you then I guess the negative no campaign was effective.

I'm not white elite like you and can afford 2 dollars for the subscription
Not everything you read is true

But this 80 percent that you agreed with - was taken from yougov which coming from a wanker who previously used yougov whilst waiting for porn to load - knows that site is shit - you spend 15 minutes for 2 dollars and anything over or under the time you were suppose to take and you get 20 cents
I used it an called my self aboriginal and also called myself bella rolland

Has anyone noticed how salty the yes voters are they keep going even though they lost

[thefatness]

Oh no, not considering something!



Where?

https://youtu.be/SMy3wcP9g8g?si=HnLLGb-10Yj8gDXe

[pornonporn]

Why was the voice referendum done after a week from the finale of the voice
I know some people who voted for Charlie to win instead of writing yes or no.

[ReginaldBubbles]

I'm not white elite like you and can afford 2 dollars for the subscription
Not everything you read is true

But this 80 percent that you agreed with - was taken from yougov which coming from a wanker who previously used yougov whilst waiting for porn to load - knows that site is shit - you spend 15 minutes for 2 dollars and anything over or under the time you were suppose to take and you get 20 cents
I used it an called my self aboriginal and also called myself bella rolland

Has anyone noticed how salty the yes voters are they keep going even though they lost

Use this website and you can bypass the subscription Just paste the link to the article in the box.
https://12ft.io/?fbclid=IwAR0M4LCdDyjoPGyZ8eA-CIeBSHl9f93PtQeYmd1ZcZNPTnBw7nbZ5hBDj4
"Not everything you read is true" is not the same as nothing you read is true.

You sound salty

[ReginaldBubbles]

Why was the voice referendum done after a week from the finale of the voice
I know some people who voted for Charlie to win instead of writing yes or no.

The government was intentionally trying to confuse you into voting for the wrong thing

[pornonporn]

I'm not salty I didn't even lose
I think I even voted yes because I put some cum on the ballot paper and put my pubes on it
I stuck pubes on the ballot paper and used my cum as glue
I thought it was funny

[ReginaldBubbles]

Nothing wrong with Warren Mundine he’s an achiever.

So a millionaire isn’t an elite but an academic is? Or does it just depend on whether you agree with them or not?
White people love an Aboriginal person who tells them Australia isn’t a racist country.

[ReginaldBubbles]

https://chaser.com.au/general-news/confused-andrew-bolt-fan-votes-yes-after-hearing-claims-that-the-voice-will-bring-apartheid-to-australia/

[Vincent888]

Is there an expiry date to this thread?

[frisson]

So a millionaire isn’t an elite but an academic is? Or does it just depend on whether you agree with them or not?
White people love an Aboriginal person who tells them Australia isn’t a racist country.
Let me define what an Elite was during the 2023 referendum

An Elite was anyone who put down a No voter.

The majority of Australians were totally repelled by the Elites by the time they voted

The messaging from the Yes side also failed. US basketballer Shaquille O'Neal was brought in at one point. I'm not making this stuff up. That was desperate and Australia knew it. Noone needed the media to tell you that Yes team were desperate. Insulting people, calling them racist or dickheads or stupid, was the nail in the coffin for the referendum

Pornonporn was correct
"We were sick of being constantly mocked if we chose no"

People hated Elites telling them what to think

It's that simple
Don't overcomplicate things

[ReginaldBubbles]

Let me define what an Elite was during the 2023 referendum

An Elite was anyone who put down a No voter.

The majority of Australians were totally repelled by the Elites by the time they voted

The messaging from the Yes side also failed. US basketballer Shaquille O'Neal was brought in at one point. I'm not making this stuff up. That was desperate and Australia knew it. Noone needed the media to tell you that Yes team were desperate. Insulting people, calling them racist or dickheads or stupid, was the nail in the coffin for the referendum

Pornonporn was correct
"We were sick of being constantly mocked if we chose no"

People hated Elites telling them what to think

It's that simple
Don't overcomplicate things

I guess the definition of the world elite has changed then.

[ReginaldBubbles]

Is there an expiry date to this thread?

You could always not click on it, but don’t worry precious, I’m done. Continue with your fantasy posts.

[frisson]

I guess the definition of the world elite has changed then.
That's correct mate

A lot has now changed since the PM f_cked things up. Australians are now 1000% wiser

Elites are now defined as anyone who wants to put you down because you disagree with them on a topic of virtue signalling

Elites are the ones who want to cancel you because you have a different opinion on a virtue signalling issue

Elites sprouted up everywhere this referendum. On TV. On meaningless advertising campaigns. Telling us their 9 year old daughters know better than you. TV hosts telling people they were dickheads

Songs were regurgitated from the past and used. Airplanes plastered with the Yes message. A US basketballer used by the PM (cringeworthy. Look it up on YouTube. Shaquille O'Neal is almost twice the PMs height)

All Elite tactics which in 2023 no longer work. It's so beautiful

Australians proved decisively that they are free to say No about any issue

[ReginaldBubbles]

Let me define what an Elite was during the 2023 referendum

An Elite was anyone who put down a No voter.

The majority of Australians were totally repelled by the Elites by the time they voted

The messaging from the Yes side also failed. US basketballer Shaquille O'Neal was brought in at one point. I'm not making this stuff up. That was desperate and Australia knew it. Noone needed the media to tell you that Yes team were desperate. Insulting people, calling them racist or dickheads or stupid, was the nail in the coffin for the referendum

Pornonporn was correct
"We were sick of being constantly mocked if we chose no"

People hated Elites telling them what to think

It's that simple
Don't overcomplicate things

Btw, Mundine said yes voters were declaring war on Australia so I guess he is an elite
Ok over and out. Enjoy!

[frisson]

Btw, Mundine said yes voters were declaring war on Australia so I guess he is an elite
Ok over and out. Enjoy!

An Elite was anyone who put down a No voter

Anyone can argue their case but don't need to put people down or blame the media. Most people don't read newspapers anymore

By definition Mundine was not an Elite during the 2023 Referendum

[cafepombo]

I was wondering who all these no voters were. I guess now I know.

[Vincent888]

Perhaps the Yes voters might ask for a recount?

[ColesBag]

I was wondering who all these no voters were. I guess now I know.

Every single state in Australia voted No. That's where they are.

[Vincent888]

Every single state in Australia voted No. That's where they are.

All but the A.C.T.

Where they can legally smoke pot, coincidence??!!

[Axeman123]

Is J Anna working today?

[Ngarritj]

Really interesting discussion and this reminds me of someone who said that punters are cuntstruck.

[Vincent888]

Really interesting discussion and this reminds me of someone who said that punters are cuntstruck.

Perhaps it’s the cunters who are puntstruck?

[frisson]

Is J Anna working today?

Bringing the referendum failure back to terms punters understand

Disinformation:
J Anna could be working today. She come later. Come and see

Misinformation:
J Anna is working today. Come and see
Truth - J Anna not rostered today

No Information:
""Is J Anna working today, please give me details ??"
"Come to our shop and see who is here. Can't tell you right now. Come and see"

[frisson]

Welcome to the 2023 referendum:

Disinformation:
The Voice will not affect the ways the Executive and Ministers do their job. The Voice will never appeal to the High Court when the government produces new laws
The Voice needs this referendum
(Truth- the Voice is untested, and can be introduced tomorrow if Fed Government chooses to produce a new set of laws! Constitution is not required! Referendum just makes this untested Voice very permanent)

Misinformation:
80% of Indigenous support the Voice
(this was pure b_llsh_t)

No Information:
"How does the Voice work"
Response:
"The Voice only gives advice, but the actual structure? We haven't designed it yet!"

[pornonporn]

Welcome to the 2023 referendum:

Disinformation:
The Voice will not affect the ways the Executive and Ministers do their job. The Voice will never appeal to the High Court when the government produces new laws
The Voice needs this referendum
(Truth- the Voice is untested, and can be introduced tomorrow if Fed Government chooses to produce a new set of laws! Constitution is not required! Referendum just makes this untested Voice permanent)

Misinformation:
80% of Indigenous support the Voice
(this was pure b_llsh_t)

No Information:
"How does the Voice work"
Response:
"The Voice only gives advice, but the actual structure? We haven't designed it yet!"


The voice reminds me of the time a massage lady rubbed my chest and said it's good that I cum quick after I was embarassed I couldn't get a stiffy and cummed in the first minute.
It was not good hearing that voice say it was good I cum quick because I know deep down it was not good to cum in 1 minute

[frisson]

Perhaps the Yes voters might ask for a recount?

Bro, even Trump knows a dead carcass if he saw this mess

Storming Canberra would not reverse this major clusterf_ck

Noone can unscramble this Albo omelette. He cooked the omelette blindfolded and with zero statesmanship

You can now see why the Labor Party first preferred Bill Shorten to Albo a few years back. This PM, like many of his Ministers have NO real world experience. Again. I'm not making this up !

[pornonporn]

Btw, Mundine said yes voters were declaring war on Australia so I guess he is an elite
Ok over and out. Enjoy!



Please don't leave
People like you never admit they are wrong when they are wrong
Even when you have cum all over your face
You will be the first person to have left
You need to argue forever and ever and make up more shit