Who would vote yes for this 1946 referendum?

[ReginaldBubbles]

Just another fun referendum discussion topic.
Who would vote yes now to the 1946 referendum?

Question
Do you approve of the proposed law for the alteration of the Constitution entitled 'Constitution Alteration (Social Services) 1946'?

Section 51 of the Australian Constitution grants the commonwealth legislative power. Prior to this amendment the only social services provision was s51(xxiii) that gave power to legislate for invalid and old-age pensions. The proposal was to introduce s51(xxiiiA), which reads:[1]

(xxiiiA) the provision of maternity allowances, widows' pensions, child endowment, unemployment, pharmaceutical, sickness and hospital benefits, medical and dental services (but not so as to authorize any form of civil conscription), benefits to students and family allowances;


It passed btw which is why we have a safety net that reduces crime, lowers sickness and death rates etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1946_Australian_referendum_(Social_Services)

[ReginaldBubbles]

"Where's the detail?"

[frisson]

It would pass today as well.
Australians are fair minded people

This simple 1946 referendum proposal didn't divide the country based on race. It also discussed proven policies that already existed overseas and were shown to be very effective. Welfare policies in Europe including the UK did not divide people based on race, and provided fair financial support based on need

I like Martin Luther King's most famous quote

"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

While I question the PM competence with leading a failed referendum, I am sensible enough to see everyone's good deeds

So I agree with part of his speech today
"We can and must do better for our First Nations Peoples"

So let's now create the Voice by legislation today, see if it works, and then we can all restart the debate

[Ghost2hauntU]

It would pass today as well.
Australians are fair minded people

This simple 1946 referendum proposal didn't divide the country based on race. It also discussed proven policies that already existed overseas and were shown to be very effective. Welfare policies in Europe including the UK did not divide people based on race, and provided fair financial support based on need

I like Martin Luther King's most famous quote

"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

While I question the PM competence with leading a failed referendum, I am sensible enough to see everyone's good deeds

So I agree with part of his speech today
"We can and must do better for our First Nations Peoples"

So let's now create the Voice by legislation today, see if it works, and then we can all restart the debate

I forgot to vote. Will I get fined?

[Vincent888]

Did albo spruik it?

[Double_Adapter]

I forgot to vote. Will I get fined?

Don't worry bro, $75 won't make a fucken dent on the $450m splurge.

[fted]

It would pass today as well.
Probably not. You'd have Dutton and the Murdoch press spouting falsehoods about what it's about, scaring people into voting No. Because it's all about scoring political points, not about the welfare of the nation.


Australians are fair minded people
Apparently not.

[GoldfishMan]

I forgot to vote. Will I get fined?

$55 bucks inclusive of GST.

[kingwally]

Probably not. You'd have Dutton and the Murdoch press spouting falsehoods about what it's about, scaring people into voting No. Because it's all about scoring political points, not about the welfare of the nation.


Apparently not.

Fucking hell...here we go....blame Murdoch again....I suppose he was with Captain Cook in 1770 and planted the English flag, or perhaps he led the crusaders through the Middle East?

[Double_Adapter]

Fucking hell...here we go....blame Murdoch again....I suppose he was with Captain Cook in 1770 and planted the English flag, or perhaps he led the crusaders through the Middle East?

Lol! I'd be blaming the Dutch for everything.

The Dutch where the first white fellas to land in Oz back in 1606 and subsequently nailed a plate to a tree (hartogs plate). 100+ years later the pomms said fuck it, and planted their flag on terra firma.

[Climax598]

$55 bucks inclusive of GST.
Just able to do a Rnt for 30min without extra. What a waste.

[fted]

Fucking hell...here we go....blame Murdoch again..
Oh, I didn't realise NewsCorp had been campaigning for the Yes vote. Not sure how I missed that.

[ReginaldBubbles]

Did albo spruik it?

Yep of course. In 1946

[ReginaldBubbles]

It would pass today as well.
Australians are fair minded people

This simple 1946 referendum proposal didn't divide the country based on race. It also discussed proven policies that already existed overseas and were shown to be very effective. Welfare policies in Europe including the UK did not divide people based on race, and provided fair financial support based on need

I like Martin Luther King's most famous quote

"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

While I question the PM competence with leading a failed referendum, I am sensible enough to see everyone's good deeds

So I agree with part of his speech today
"We can and must do better for our First Nations Peoples"

So let's now create the Voice by legislation today, see if it works, and then we can all restart the debate

I highly doubt it would pass today since the LNP would oppose it and spread disinformation. Governments used to be more bipartisan but now it's just whatever Labor proposes, we oppose it. And I don't see how this referendum was "dividing the country based on race."
Lol at quoting Martin Luther King Jr though!

[frisson]

Fucking hell...here we go....blame Murdoch again....I suppose he was with Captain Cook in 1770 and planted the English flag, or perhaps he led the crusaders through the Middle East?

Agree. You've lost the argument once you use the words Left, Right, racist, Right wing press, Murdoch and countless other ways to attack a person or the press, and not address your opponents argument

[frisson]

(Albo spuiked). Yep of course. In 1946

The person running the country had a shocker. For the sake of Australians, I hope this PM doesn't turn to sh-t everything he touches

[ReginaldBubbles]

Agree. You've lost the argument once you use the words Left, Right, racist, Right wing press, Murdoch and countless other ways to attack a person or the press, and not address your opponents argument



So it's impossible to critique the Murdoch press? One of the most powerful propaganda machines in the western world? Are Rupert and Lachlan Murdoch elites? And it's also impossible to point out racism??

[frisson]

So it's impossible to critique the Murdoch press? One of the most powerful propaganda machines in the western world? Are Rupert and Lachlan Murdoch elites? And it's also impossible to point out racism??

Critique anyone you like after the vote. You are welcome to make as many excuses as you like

The Australian public made a decision and they usually make the right decisions

There were endless media types on the ABC and commercial media who supported Yes. Yes team also had a huge marketing budget, way outspending the No campaign

The PM also blamed the media. Unfortunately if you can't control the message, then you have no chance of persuading millions of voters to agree with you. Qantas and other big businesses couldnt provide a compelling message

I like Jacinta Price's quote:
"We were accused of misinformation on the NO side. The PM had a far more serious criticism - no information"

True

[LBW1959]

Ahh...yes...the Murdoch Press...
Occasionally I buy the Telegraph just to see if they've employed any actual journalists but I'm always disappointed.
I struggle to find any real news..all opinion pieces and advertisements.

[frisson]

Ahh...yes...the Murdoch Press...
Occasionally I buy the Telegraph just to see if they've employed any actual journalists but I'm always disappointed.
I struggle to find any real news..all opinion pieces and advertisements.
So you voted yes. Any ideas why the country voted no?

[ReginaldBubbles]

Critique anyone you like after the vote. You are welcome to make as many excuses as you like

The Australian public made a decision and they usually make the right decisions

There were endless media types on the ABC and commercial media who supported Yes. Yes team also had a huge marketing budget, way outspending the No campaign

The PM also blamed the media. Unfortunately if you can't control the message, then you have no chance of persuading millions of voters to agree with you. Qantas and other big businesses couldnt provide a compelling message

I like Jacinta Price's quote:
"We were accused of misinformation on the NO side. The PM had a far more serious criticism - no information"

True

I disagree that there was no information but do you really think misinformation is far better??

[Sharphorse]

Fucking hell...here we go....blame Murdoch again....I suppose he was with Captain Cook in 1770 and planted the English flag, or perhaps he led the crusaders through the Middle East?

To be fair he looks so old he was probably the one who nailed Jesus to the cross

[Sharphorse]

The person running the country had a shocker. For the sake of Australians, I hope this PM doesn't turn to sh-t everything he touches

Wait until you hear about the last guy we had who came up with this scheme called robodebt and also oversaw 38 billion dollars in payments to business owners who didn’t need it and was never recovered

[frisson]

Cant imagine a worse mistake than disappointing our indigenous brothers so incompetently by convincing the majority of the country to vote against an indigenous voice, when 12 months ago everyone was willing to vote Yes

But you are correct, the robodebt scandal is a close second

[GoldfishMan]

So any ideas how to rid ourselves of all these incompetent leaders in government?

Maybe we ought to explore "technocracy" instead of "representative democracy".
Decision makers in government would then need to be technically skilled to be able to take a position, not just be able to win popular votes and get elected like it is now.

For example, someone like Brad Hazzard would never have gotten the Minister of Health job if we were a technocracy. The guy was a solicitor, doesn't make sense to let him make decisions pertaining to healthcare. Instead, an elected Pollie with a background in healthcare, like a doctor, would get the job.

Although, I have no idea how a PM would be chosen using that kind of system.

[ReginaldBubbles]

Cant imagine a worse mistake than disappointing our indigenous brothers so incompetently by convincing the majority of the country to vote against an indigenous voice, when 12 months ago everyone was willing to vote Yes

But you are correct, the robodebt scandal is a close second

Well you could've voted yes.

And 38 billion dollars to companies who didn't need it! 38 BILLION!!! Imagine the possibilities! we could've had more than 80 referendums in one year!

[LBW1959]

So you voted yes. Any ideas why the country voted no?
I did vote Yes, and curiously so did the majority of my safe Liberal electorate. It seems a bit counter-intuitive...many of the safe Liberal seats voted Yes, and nearly all of the safe Labor seats voted No, apart from Albo's.
I think the overwhelming No vote was because people can't see how the Voice would actually improve anything on the ground.
I agree that the referendum should have been 2 questions: 1 for constitutional recognition and 1 for the Voice proposal.
Constitutional recognition is really only symbolic but emotional symbolism is a powerful thing that could be harnessed to improve a lot of lives.

[ReginaldBubbles]

I like Jacinta Price's quote:
"We were accused of misinformation on the NO side. The PM had a far more serious criticism - no information"

True

You actually believe this?? Misinformation is better than no information?

[frisson]

You actually believe this?? Misinformation is better than no information?

Yes. The feedback from the majority of the voting population on Saturday was that there was not enough information provided

And as history showed, the majority of the population voted No for not enough information. Thats what happened

[ReginaldBubbles]

Yes. The feedback from the majority of the voting population on Saturday was that there was not enough information provided

And as history showed, the majority of the population voted No for not enough information. Thats what happened

But even if you think that, how the fuck is misinformation better??

[ReginaldBubbles]

And as history showed, the majority of the population voted No for not enough information. Thats what happened

This is what history shows. This is what happened.

https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.smh.com.au%2Fpolitics%2F federal%2Fno-campaign-s-fear-doubt-strategy-revealed-20230910-p5e3fu.html

[frisson]

This is what history shows. This is what happened.

https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.smh.com.au%2Fpolitics%2F federal%2Fno-campaign-s-fear-doubt-strategy-revealed-20230910-p5e3fu.html

Does this article lay the blame on the referendum failure mainly on Mr Albanese or does it blame Murdoch ? I doubt many people get their news from newspapers anymore

[ReginaldBubbles]

Does this article lay the blame on the referendum failure mainly on Mr Albanese or does it blame Murdoch ? I doubt many people get their news from newspapers anymore

I mean you could read it. And I don't know why you're so protective of Murdoch.

Quote from the article:
"Inglis told supporters that phone canvassing – using a tool called CallHub employed by successful campaigns in Europe and the United States – was integral to Advance’s efforts.
If 250 people attend a phone calling session, Inglis said, they could reach 15,000 so-called “soft” voters yet to make a firm decision."

No campaign focused mainly on this and social media.

[ReginaldBubbles]

But even if you think that, how the fuck is misinformation better??

Seriously though?

[uglyphil]

I do seriously doubt that the 1946 referendum would pass today. It passed then on the end of a world war and the depression. People still remembered what it was like to be destitute and how easy it was for them to become so. They realised that THEY needed a safety net and so voted it in.

Since then we have had decades of (relative) economic security and politicians on both sides (but mostly the coalition) demonising "dole bludgers" and welfare "rorters". Today those fallicies still run deep with many people and this would count against an affirmative vote. People tend to only vote yes if they believe it won't harm or effect them if it is about a group of "other" people. That is why it always easier to argue a no case in a debate.

[ReginaldBubbles]

I do seriously doubt that the 1946 referendum would pass today. It passed then on the end of a world war and the depression. People still remembered what it was like to be destitute and how easy it was for them to become so. They realised that THEY needed a safety net and so voted it in.

Since then we have had decades of (relative) economic security and politicians on both sides (but mostly the coalition) demonising "dole bludgers" and welfare "rorters". Today those fallicies still run deep with many people and this would count against an affirmative vote. People tend to only vote yes if they believe it won't harm or effect them if it is about a group of "other" people. That is why it always easier to argue a no case in a debate.

Yep. And they didn't have social media or hyper-partisanship. We're all done for...

[Double_Adapter]

You actually believe this?? Misinformation is better than no information?

You can analyse, discuss, debate and assess 'misinformation' and 'disinformation', but 'no information' now that's fucken hard to wrap your head around!

[frisson]

You can analyse, discuss, debate and assess 'misinformation' and 'disinformation', but 'no information' now that's fucken hard to wrap your head around!

Exactly. The majority of Australians voted No. That tells you No information was a bigger issue than Misinformation

The PM has accepted the responsibility for the failure, he acknowledges that his lack of proper information and proper consultation was a fatal blow to his rushed referendum

[carmen farquis]

How would anyone know there was mis information if there was no information.

[Double_Adapter]

How would anyone know there was mis information if there was no information.

Good point!

The concept of dis, mis and no information can be quite confusing and in punting terms I'll use Mimi @ Burwood as an example.

Disinformation:
Mimi is back, working from her old place at Burwood, and now offers full service

Misinformation:
Mimi said she might be coming back to Sydney in Nov-Dec.

No Information:
Mimi...


And I guess this is why the referendum failed.

[frisson]

How would anyone know there was mis information if there was no information.
That's a great question. Did you think you were given enough information to understand how the Voice would work?

[frisson]

The concept of dis, mis and no information can be quite confusing and in punting terms I'll use Mimi @ Burwood as an example.

Disinformation:
Mimi is back, working from her old place at Burwood, and now offers full service

Misinformation:
Mimi said she might be coming back to Sydney in Nov-Dec.

No Information:
Mimi...

And I guess this is why the referendum failed.
I love it.
Bringing it back to terms punters understand

May I have a go?

Disinformation:
Lily could be working today. She come later. Come and see

Misinformation:
Lily working today (when she is away). Come and see

No Information:
""How does your roster work, give me details please??"
"Come to our shop and see who is here. Can't tell you right now. Come and see"

[frisson]

To be fair Murdoch looks so old he was probably the one who nailed Jesus to the cross

Both Rudd and Turnbull blamed Murdoch for being knifed in the back by their own parties. Nice scapegoat

Murdoch was the reason I got a speeding fine

[frisson]

Wait until you hear about the last guy we had who came up with this scheme called robodebt and also oversaw 38 billion dollars in payments to business owners who didn’t need it and was never recovered
Classic case of distracting from the current discussion

Albo royally f_cked up, but look over there !!

[GoldfishMan]

Classic case of distracting from the current discussion

Albo royally f_cked up, but look over there !!

Finding it hard to buy into your argument that Albo was responsible for the failure of this referendum when you put it against our track record of 0/9 successful referendums in the last 47 years. Only 8/45 successful overall. Out of that 8 successful, I count only 2 that were of great importance, the rest were superficial at best.

Are we really "united"? Do we really stand as one? The pattern of outcomes in the referendum failures after WW II paint a different picture. There are deep divisions everywhere. City folks vs regional folks. State vs state. Race, education level, wealth, income, tree lover, animal lover, meat eater or vegan. You name it. It's as if people are continuously trying to find new ways to create another division.

Up to this point, past referendum failures have been because of state rivalry. NSW and VIC would vote for Yes, the other states counter them with No. This time around, it appears to be city vs regional. What's next?

[frisson]

Finding it hard to buy into your argument that Albo was responsible for the failure of this referendum when you put it against our track record of 0/9 successful referendums in the last 47 years. Only 8/45 successful overall. Out of that 8 successful, I count only 2 that were of great importance, the rest were superficial at best

Australians would have definitely voted Yes for Aboriginal recognition in the Constitution. They want to address to Gap in Indigenous health and education

Referendums will pass if Australia can trust a well defined question

But they don't like to be given No Information in a rushed manner. Even Noel Pearson, a famous Indigenous spokesman, stated he produced an actual Voice model, but Albo ignored him and kept things vague ! I'm not making this up! Noel was taken surprise by how rushed Albo was

Albo acknowledges the 2023 referendum failure was his fault

It was also was sneaky to have two questions and not explain how the Voice would be a committee that would work when all other committed get bogged down with bureaucrats who are all talk and no results

Noone explained how the Voice that deals directly with the Ministers and Cabinet works

Noone explained - would the Voice appeal to the High Court if the Voice felt it was not being listened to

[thefatness]

The yes vote was leading the polls at the start of the year.

Imagine losing a soccer match with a 2-0 lead at half time.

[Vincent888]

Just another fun referendum discussion topic.
Who would vote yes now to the 1946 referendum?

Question
Do you approve of the proposed law for the alteration of the Constitution entitled 'Constitution Alteration (Social Services) 1946'?

Section 51 of the Australian Constitution grants the commonwealth legislative power. Prior to this amendment the only social services provision was s51(xxiii) that gave power to legislate for invalid and old-age pensions. The proposal was to introduce s51(xxiiiA), which reads:[1]

(xxiiiA) the provision of maternity allowances, widows' pensions, child endowment, unemployment, pharmaceutical, sickness and hospital benefits, medical and dental services (but not so as to authorize any form of civil conscription), benefits to students and family allowances;


It passed btw which is why we have a safety net that reduces crime, lowers sickness and death rates etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1946_Australian_referendum_(Social_Services)

Couldn’t you have asked this question back in 1946? Why did you wait 80 years?

[frisson]

The yes vote was leading the polls at the start of the year.

Imagine losing a soccer match with a 2-0 lead at half time.

That's right. All Australians are fair minded and would have voted Yes.

But Albo's messaging was vague and elusive
Australians made the correct decision on polling day

Indigenous supporters now suffer because Albo rushed things without engaging with the population

The dirty secret is that Albo and the Elites who surrounded him, were completely out of touch with mainstream Australia on this issue who rebelled against not enough detail

Like a salesman trying to sell you a DVD player, noone trusted the PM

[Vincent888]

Perhaps if he had better dental work?

[frisson]

The yes vote was leading the polls at the start of the year.

Imagine losing a soccer match with a 2-0 lead at half time.

Another soccer analogy

'Yes' campaign team
Played in well funded gear with Qantas and the four 4 banks paying millions to advertise the team. Leading Yes campaigner Marcia Langton scored a few silly own goals and had no idea how to win a game
(Google: Langton called people racists)

'No' campaign team
Played barefoot but had the two best players in the country - Jacinta Price and Warren Mundine

'Yes' team were 2 goals ahead in the first 5 minutes

No campaign comfortably won
The final score was 6 - 4

'Yes' team captain, Albo, accepted the responsibility for the massive loss. He rushed things and was out of touch

[Vincent888]

Did he shed a tear ?

[frisson]

Did he shed a tear ?
Albo was very upset
The entire country was upset. There were no winners with this

The PM f_cked up a great opportunity to address the Gap, by not being more detailed with the referendum proposal

[Sharphorse]

Both Rudd and Turnbull blamed Murdoch for being knifed in the back by their own parties. Nice scapegoat

Murdoch was the reason I got a speeding fine

Murdoch does control our government like a puppeteer though. I do think Rudd and Turnbull are hypocrites though because they were fine with it until Murdoch helped sink them with his media outlets. I would have to double check this but I think Julia Gillard might be the only prime minster we’ve had since the 80s who didn’t have an organised dinner with Murdoch on the campaign trail and her only victory in 2010 was barely one at all. I’m sure if a lot of people were as rich as Murdoch they’d use their media companies to influence elections. What good is power if you can’t abuse it, right?

[Sharphorse]

Classic case of distracting from the current discussion

Albo royally f_cked up, but look over there !!

The reason I brought it up wasn’t to change the topic. Just wanted to point out the people upset over Albo wasting 450 million on this referendum were looking the other way when Liberals pissed 38 billion down the drain. It’s one of many double standards. Didn’t see Andrew Bolt calling on Frydenberg to resign then

[frisson]

Murdoch does control our government like a puppeteer though. I do think Rudd and Turnbull are hypocrites though because they were fine with it until Murdoch helped sink them with his media outlets. I would have to double check this but I think Julia Gillard might be the only prime minster we’ve had since the 80s who didn’t have an organised dinner with Murdoch on the campaign trail and her only victory in 2010 was barely one at all. I’m sure if a lot of people were as rich as Murdoch they’d use their media companies to influence elections. What good is power if you can’t abuse it, right?
You are very reasonable with your points. Life isn't black and white

Blaming people like Murdoch and avoiding debating the actual issue is to be avoided

Noone reads newspapers anymore. Ask anyone aged less than 30 and they will laugh at you

As I said, Murdoch made me get a speeding ticket. Damned Murdoch!

[frisson]

The reason I brought it up wasn’t to change the topic. Just wanted to point out the people upset over Albo wasting 450 million on this referendum were looking the other way when Liberals pissed 38 billion down the drain. It’s one of many double standards. Didn’t see Andrew Bolt calling on Frydenberg to resign then
Both are terrible wastes of money. True one is at a far larger scale and I totally agree with your point. You are very balanced in your discussion

[frisson]

Julia Gillard might be the only prime minster we’ve had since the 80s who didn’t have an organised dinner with Murdoch on the campaign trail

Let's face it. If anyone was untalented with no merit, and were in Federal politics, most would invite Satan himself to dinner (Murdoch is a businessman by the way) if it secured a position after the next election. That's life

[thefatness]

Another soccer analogy

'Yes' campaign team
Played in well funded gear with Qantas and the four 4 banks paying millions to advertise the team. Leading Yes campaigner Marcia Langton scored a few silly own goals and had no idea how to win a game
(Google: Langton called people racists)

'No' campaign team
Played barefoot but had the two best players in the country - Jacinta Price and Warren Mundine

'Yes' team were 2 goals ahead in the first 5 minutes

No campaign comfortably won
The final score was 6 - 4

'Yes' team captain, Albo, accepted the responsibility for the massive loss. He rushed things and was out of touch

Spot on bro. The drag queen singing you’re the voice was another own goal.

The 6-4 is also an accurate depiction of how Australia voted

[frisson]

Spot on bro. The drag queen singing you’re the voice was another own goal.

The 6-4 is also an accurate depiction of how Australia voted
Sh_t bro. I didn't know this

The Yes campaign had a drag queen singer? Nothing against drag queens, but did that really happen??

How does a drag queen convince undecided Western Sydney voters? What a clusterf_ck! The reckoning get worse ever day!