In honour of freedom protesters murdered in The Tiananmen Square Massacre 25 yrs ago

[SirLaughsAlot]

In honour of the freedom protesters murdered in The Tiananmen Square Massacre 25 years ago,
by an extremely fearful ruling elite, my regular Thursday punt is postponed until tomorrow.
My thoughts are with all those freedom fighters who have died in pursuit of their noble cause.

(Note: I'm fully aware the anniversary day was yesterday).

[Oneonone]

In honour of the freedom protesters murdered in The Tiananmen Square Massacre 25 years ago,
by an extremely fearful ruling elite, my regular Thursday punt is postponed until tomorrow.
My thoughts are with all those freedom fighters who have died in pursuit of their noble cause.

(Note: I'm fully aware the anniversary day was yesterday).

I would have thought it more appropriate to go and support all the free lovely Chinese ladies trying to make ends meet in Australia.

Seriously though it was a tradgedy and thanks to those people China is a better place today.

[SirLaughsAlot]

I would have thought it more appropriate to go and support all the free lovely Chinese ladies trying to make ends meet in Australia.

Seriously though it was a tradgedy and thanks to those people China is a better place today.

Is China a better place today? Or is it exactly the same in terms of freedom? Or could it even be worse than before?
It seems that increasing affluence has totally seduced the Chinese people – they just want cars and clothes, and they
don’t even think about their lack of freedom anymore. I think things are perhaps a lot worse than before.

[Oneonone]

Well I don't really know to be honest at face value it looks and sounds better to me, a couple of my Chinese friends, not wl, seem to think it is better, but then one could argue if its better why are they living in Australia.

So I will leave that debate to those that clearly have more knowledge on the subject than I do.

[AHLUNGOR]

Well I don't really know to be honest at face value it looks and sounds better to me, a couple of my Chinese friends, not wl, seem to think it is better, but then one could argue if its better why are they living in Australia.

So I will leave that debate to those that clearly have more knowledge on the subject than I do.



50,000 Chinese students were studying in Australia at the time of the Tienanmen Square incident and thanks to Mr Bob Hawke, they all received their residency status !!

A very good friend of mine was one of the lucky one at the time, she is now a very proud Australian, a leader in her field of industry (a State Manager for NSW !). So in her heart, she gives thanks to the incident and counted that as her blessing.

[SirLaughsAlot]

50,000 Chinese students were studying in Australia at the time of the Tienanmen Square incident and thanks to Mr Bob Hawke, they all received their residency status !!

A very good friend of mine was one of the lucky one at the time, she is now a very proud Australian, a leader in her field of industry (a State Manager for NSW !). So in her heart, she gives thanks to the incident and counted that as her blessing.

I know English is not your first language, so your choice of words may not be entirely intentional,
but are you actually saying, "in her heart, she gives thanks to the incident and counted that as her blessing."

You are saying she gives thanks to the incident - thanks for hundreds, even thousands of deaths, just because
she and others studying in Australia, managed to ultimately get an Australian visa out of the situation.

It's sounds like a very selfish way of looking at the Tiananmen Massacre. Surely, she can't possibly be thankful.
She is hopefully sad about the massacre, but grateful to Bob Hawke for relaxing residency requirements in the face of the massacre.

[wilisno]

I know English is not your first language, so your choice of words may not be entirely intentional,
but are you actually saying, "in her heart, she gives thanks to the incident and counted that as her blessing."

You are saying she gives thanks to the incident - thanks for hundreds, even thousands of deaths, just because
she and others studying in Australia, managed to ultimately get an Australian visa out of the situation.

It's sounds like a very selfish way of looking at the Tiananmen Massacre. Surely, she can't possibly be thankful.
She is hopefully sad about the massacre, but grateful to Bob Hawke for relaxing residency requirements in the face of the massacre.

This is about the only post from you that I find is reasonable ! :miao:

I can't imagine anyone can feel grateful for a massacre !

The Tienanmen Square incident was tragic, and shameful to the nation of China, no doubt about it. But comparing the senseless killing of the freedom fighters there to the slaughter of monkey and giraffe and his reincarnations here is ludicrous, because his treatment was well supported by the citizens of this forum !

[SirLaughsAlot]

This is about the only post from you that I find is reasonable ! :miao:

I can't imagine anyone can feel grateful for a massacre !

The Tienanmen Square incident was tragic, and shameful to the nation of China, no doubt about it. But comparing the senseless killing of the freedom fighters there to the slaughter of monkey and giraffe and his reincarnations here is ludicrous, because his treatment was well supported by the citizens of this forum !

Well, it certainly was an awful tragedy, perpetrated by a very fearful ruling elite, ie CCP.
History is strewn with many awful tragedies perpetrated by fearful ruling elites.
Of course, the spectrum of these events is wide and varied, so direct comparisons are made with difficulty.
Nevertheless, the underlying fearful mentality of the perpetrators is much the same, regardless of the
gravitas of the specific events.

Now that you think I'm reasonable, do you think we should kiss and make-up?

[diamondeyez]

Wow thats cold. Your very good friend sounds like a horrible person. shame on them!


50,000 Chinese students were studying in Australia at the time of the Tienanmen Square incident and thanks to Mr Bob Hawke, they all received their residency status !!

A very good friend of mine was one of the lucky one at the time, she is now a very proud Australian, a leader in her field of industry (a State Manager for NSW !). So in her heart, she gives thanks to the incident and counted that as her blessing.

[wilisno]

Well, it certainly was an awful tragedy, perpetrated by a very fearful ruling elite, ie CCP.
History is strewn with many awful tragedies perpetrated by fearful ruling elites.
Of course, the spectrum of these events is wide and varied, so direct comparisons are made with difficulty.
Nevertheless, the underlying fearful mentality of the perpetrators is much the same, regardless of the
gravitas of the specific events.

Now that you think I'm reasonable, do you think we should kiss and make-up?
As I said, the slaughter of the monkey and giraffe and his reincarnations was overwhelming supported by the citizens of this forum, because you are like the graffiti vandals, they call themselves the freedom fighters too !

You can only kiss and make up with Proximo I'm sure !

[uglyphil]

How odd....

Sir Goose a little logs off and only a few minutes later your account is created and begins posting in support of him. Coincidence?

I tend to think not ;)

So sad that you have no RL friends (well, maybe one that is in close proximity) to back you up and have to resort to making fake ones.

The good thing is that one of the ways the popularity of a forum can measured is by the number of its members... you are most definitely helping aus99 in that regards LOL

I would like to point out that the above post was made to a poster who has been banned several times, and has now been banned again. The post was obviously so bad that it has since been removed. I was NOT replying to wilisno.

[JC1]

Any person with some humanitarian value would find the sentiment expressed by Ahlungor's friend appalling. However I am not surprised by it, I do know there are lot of people (inside or outside of China) who have prospered since that incidence, they hold the cold and selfish view that the students were naive and trouble makers, and should have been killed, otherwise China would have fallen apart like the Soviet Union.

[SirLaughsAlot]

Any person with some humanitarian value would find the sentiment expressed by Ahlungor's friend appalling. However I am not surprised by it, I do know there are lot of people (inside or outside of China) who have prospered since that incidence, they hold the cold and selfish view that the students were naive and trouble makers, and should have been killed, otherwise China would have fallen apart like the Soviet Union.

I have come across the same incredibly selfish mentality, at first I just didn't want to believe it, but then I see it is quite prevalent amongst many Chinese.
It is as if they have totally sold their souls to the material life, all they care about is I, Me, Mine. The so-called economic boom in China has assisted in
destroying the soul and conscience of the people. (Not all the people, but many).

[AHLUNGOR]

Wo w thats cold. Your very good friend sounds like a horrible person. shame on them!

Don't try to twist the meaning of my words and take things out of the context!!

My friend was Not grateful for the Tienanmen incident , none of the Chinese student studying in Aust at the time would !

My friends heart was grateful to the Prime Minister Mr Hawke for his compassionate granting of resident status to herself and her fellow students . Which, was a direct result of the incident happened in Beijing !

They had no control over what happened in Beijing, they had no control over their own fate in Australia , they didn't ask for status, and they certainly didn't "earn" it.

It was given to them out of generosity and compassion , and totally unexpected , so if you don't call it blessing from the sky I don't know what more appropriate words in the proper English language should be used ??

[uglyphil]

Yeah, I think something was lost in the translation AH. This sometimes happens. I should have stated earlier that I did not think you meant what you said in the way that has been taken by some. My apologies for not speaking up earlier.

[AHLUNGOR]

She is definitely sad about the massacre, but grateful to Bob Hawke for relaxing residency requirements in the face of the massacre.


Thank you Sir, whoever you are !

I couldn't have said it better myself !!

For that, you are welcome to stay !

But don't try to kiss anyone ok .

Cheers

[Clinton]

200 years ago, convicts were sent to Australia from Britain to serve their sentences. 200 years later, today, Chinese princelings and sons and daughters of corrupted Chinese officials and dishonest Chinese business owners are sent to Australia by their parents in China to hide their illegal wealth and to get out before the day that they will eventually face justice in China and be overthrown by the Chinese people.

[SirLaughsAlot]

200 years ago, convicts were sent to Australia from Britain to serve their sentences. 200 years later, today, Chinese princelings and sons and daughters of corrupted Chinese officials and dishonest Chinese business owners are sent to Australia by their parents in China to hide their illegal wealth and to get out before the day that they will eventually face justice in China and be overthrown by the Chinese people.

This is so interesting, and a little scary when you stop to think about. But I totally agree with you.

[cleetusvandamme]

I have come across the same incredibly selfish mentality, at first I just didn't want to believe it, but then I see it is quite prevalent amongst many Chinese.
It is as if they have totally sold their souls to the material life, all they care about is I, Me, Mine. The so-called economic boom in China has assisted in
destroying the soul and conscience of the people. (Not all the people, but many).

Not us noble western materialists though!

[diamondeyez]

Freedom is a western concept. It puzzles the Chinese. They don't understand it.

[verbatim2]

Which is why I don't live there.

[Clinton]

200 years ago, the land of what we now call Australia opened arm and welcomed convicts from Britain. 200 years later, this land open arm again to welcome the arrival of another weave of convicts: the wealthy Chinese who come here to avoid the fate of becoming a convict in China some day in the future for their illegal business activities, bribery, corruption and persecution of Chinese people who demands freedom. They come to enjoy the freedom that they deny their people.

200 years ago, convicts from Britain built Sydney. 200 years later, their offspring are driven out of the City and away from the shores by the new weave of Chinese to-be-convicts who drive up the housing price in Sydney.

What a great county we live in!

[SirLaughsAlot]

200 years ago, the land of what we now call Australia opened arm and welcomed convicts from Britain. 200 years later, this land open arm again to welcome the arrival of another weave of convicts: the wealthy Chinese who come here to avoid the fate of becoming a convict in China some day in the future for their illegal business activities, bribery, corruption and persecution of Chinese people who demands freedom. They come to enjoy the freedom that they deny their people.

200 years ago, convicts from Britain built Sydney. 200 years later, their offspring are driven out of the City and away from the shores by the new weave of Chinese to-be-convicts who drive up the housing price in Sydney.

What a great county we live in!

There's a great deal of truth in what you're saying, and it's a huge concern for many people in Australia.

[RoyalFlush]

Being an overseas chinese with western upbringing, I have the privilege to see both sides of the world. But one have to put himself in their shoes before making quick and easy conclusions like that. Had you grew up in the same condition as them, many would probably behave the same way, due to propaganda, upbringing, social conditioning and general environment where they live in. China underwent many phases of economic and social reforms in a single generation, these people act as they are because they are simply adapting and surviving to the ever-changing environment.
But with proper education, people will learn. Most second generation asians who live and grew up here are hard working, honest and considerate. They can blend in well with the locals, many of whom even outshine their western counterparts.

[AHLUNGOR]

Being an overseas chinese with western upbringing, I have the privilege to see both sides of the world. But one have to put himself in their shoes before making quick and easy conclusions like that. Had you grew up in the same condition as them, many would probably behave the same way, due to propaganda, upbringing, social conditioning and general environment where they live in. China underwent many phases of economic and social reforms in a single generation, these people act as they are because they are simply adapting and surviving to the ever-changing environment.
But with proper education, people will learn. Most second generation asians who live and grew up here are hard working, honest and considerate. They can blend in well with the locals, many of whom even outshine their western counterparts.

I attended the graduation ceremony at the Great Hall of the Sydney University this afternoon - School of Commerce, out of all the graduates , more than two thirds are of Asian origin ! There are so many Lee, Wong, Zhang and Wu etc. it's not funny !

Asian's best sons and daughters are getting the best educations in Australia ! Thank you very much ....... Haha

[cato]

Congratulations on the graduation of your offspring! You mentioned before you were going there to do your good father duties.

Graduating from University is always a great achievement, especially since only about 18% of the Australian population are Uni graduates, but I am curious what that percentage would be among Asian Australians. I'm sure it would be much higher than 18%, but I wonder how high??

As they say, ...the more you learn.... the more you earn... LOL

[mak695]

As they say, ...the more you learn.... the more you earn... LOL

Really? Who said that quote? I'm pretty sure a truck driver at the mines probly earns more if not the same as say a civil engineer.

[harmony]

"I'm pretty sure a truck driver at the mines probly earns more if not the same as say a civil engineer"

Probably true, because not a lot of truck drivers are going to be able to work right up to the new pension age (70 years)

The more you learn, the LONGER you can earn

[pantydropa]

Not always true.
1 prime example is Richard Branson!
Besides that there are many business owners here in Australia making millions and never attended 1 day of university in their life.
My friend's father came to aus early 1970's no English and high school education from a 3rd world country, 30 years and a successful franchise later he is retired.


"I'm pretty sure a truck driver at the mines probly earns more if not the same as say a civil engineer"

Probably true, because not a lot of truck drivers are going to be able to work right up to the new pension age (70 years)

The more you learn, the LONGER you can earn

[harmony]

Agreed the majority of the worlds richest people didnt get a formal college/university education, or stopped because formal education was useless for them
eg Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg (Facebook), both left Harvard University
eg Steve Jobs, left Reed College

[Oneonone]

Australia is the lucky country and there are lots of people who have made a fortune with out a formal or university education.

The opportunities are there you only have to be in the right spot at the right time and then grab the opportunity.

Once you do that then be prepared to work hard.

[Wayne]

Agreed the majority of the worlds richest people didnt get a formal college/university education, or stopped because formal education was useless for them
eg Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg (Facebook), both left Harvard University
eg Steve Jobs, left Reed College

Each person you mention did, in fact, get a formal education at the highest level; and at some of the most exclusive institutions there are. I don't think you can equate their eventual financial success with their lack of formal education. Instead, I'd argue, these are all highly focused people with little regard for convention who used all resources available to the point of exhaustion, then moved on. Their brilliance is really that they understood the limitations of the institutions they attended.

But, I think you are totally wrong in saying that "the majority of the world's richest people didn't get a university education." There are some exceptions, but if you took the Fortune 500 and analysed the directors of those companies, you would find there are far more university graduates/attendees than not. Yeah sure, there will be some self-made shipping tycoons, or property billionaires. But the vast majority would have attended university, at some stage of their life.

[Wayne]

Australia is the lucky country and there are lots of people who have made a fortune with out a formal or university education.

The opportunities are there you only have to be in the right spot at the right time and then grab the opportunity.

Once you do that then be prepared to work hard.

"The Lucky Country" was coined as an ironic term. Donald Horne meant it to reflect the complacency engendered in the Australian population by the great natural wealth of the country. And how that complacency leads to mismanagement. Horne referred to Menzies incompetent government, but he could just have well been presciently speaking of Abbott and his cronies.

My point is that you are labouring under that same illusion of Australia being a fair place where you can achieve anything, no matter your background if you work hard enough. That's a myth mate, peddled by the elite.

[AHLUNGOR]

For anyone who is interested , go watch ABC 24 now, a special program on the Tienanmen event

[SirLaughsAlot]

For anyone who is interested , go watch ABC 24 now, a special program on the Tienanmen event


The fact that the Tienanmen Square Massacre has been erased from China's history books, and the fact that the majority
of Chinese don't really care about it anyway, provides a good picture of what the CCP and popular chinese culture is all about.
Increasing affluence has totally seduced the Chinese people – they just want cars and clothes, and they don’t even think about
their lack of freedom anymore.

Things are now probably a lot worse than before the Tienanmen incident, because the population has essentially zoned-out, they
just wanna play with smart phones, laptops, games and acquire as many material items as possible. This is the unsavoury truth.
But, the Chinese are not obliged to adopt democracy or widespread social freedoms, because these things are not really compatible
with Chinese history and the socio-cultural psyche.

[Mr. Who]

the majority of Chinese don't really care about it anyway

they just want cars and clothes, and they don’t even think about their lack of freedom anymore.

I respect that you started this thread. But statements like the above lack sufficient thinking.

[SirLaughsAlot]

I respect that you started this thread. But statements like the above lack sufficient thinking.

Well, if you think certain "edited" statements of mine lack sufficient thinking, then you should provide your own statements
demonstrating more detailed and nuanced thinking. I'm genuinely interested. I'm not sure that you think I'm highly inaccurate,
but if you actually think I am, then you should say why. That's better than just saying the edited statements "lack sufficient thinking."
Like I said, I think this matter is an "unsavoury truth" and to coin a phrase, an "inconvenient truth."

[Mr. Who]

Well, if you think certain "edited" statements of mine lack sufficient thinking, then you should provide your own statements
demonstrating more detailed and nuanced thinking. I'm genuinely interested. I'm not sure that you think I'm highly inaccurate,
but if you actually think I am, then you should say why. That's better than just saying the edited statements "lack sufficient thinking."
Like I said, I think this matter is an "unsavoury truth" and to coin a phrase, an "inconvenient truth."

No I do not think you are highly inaccurate. In fact I agree with most of your opinions. The only part that I do not agree with is whether people in China "care about" 1989. I would say that the majority want to care about the event, but are simply not allowed to care. I have literally not seen any single Chinese forum where this kind of topic is not banned. With the ridiculous level of internet restrictions in China, I just don't see how it is possible to act in a way that shows they care about the Massacre.

In terms of whether people are happy with their lack of freedom, I agree that there is a significant proportion of people who, as you said, are satisfied with cars and clothes. But again, for the majority, it is more of a desperate choice. What happened in 1989 has perfectly demonstrated to everyone what would happen if citizens want to fuck around with CCP. With that knowledge in mind, I find it unsurprising that people decide to give up.

I know that some might say "it is pathetic that people give up fighting for freedom in fear of blood and deaths" etc. I don't want to enter a debate on that. Perhaps what happened in Feb 2011 showed us that there are still warriors. But then the way CCP responded perhaps once again made people decide to give up.

[Wayne]

No I do not think you are highly inaccurate. In fact I agree with most of your opinions. The only part that I do not agree with is whether people in China "care about" 1989. I would say that the majority want to care about the event, but are simply not allowed to care. I have literally not seen any single Chinese forum where this kind of topic is not banned. With the ridiculous level of internet restrictions in China, I just don't see how it is possible to act in a way that shows they care about the Massacre.

In terms of whether people are happy with their lack of freedom, I agree that there is a significant proportion of people who, as you said, are satisfied with cars and clothes. But again, for the majority, it is more of a desperate choice. What happened in 1989 has perfectly demonstrated to everyone what would happen if citizens want to fuck around with CCP. With that knowledge in mind, I find it unsurprising that people decide to give up.

I know that some might say "it is pathetic that people give up fighting for freedom in fear of blood and deaths" etc. I don't want to enter a debate on that. Perhaps what happened in Feb 2011 showed us that there are still warriors. But then the way CCP responded perhaps once again made people decide to give up.

Well said mate. The CCP is just a group of corrupt plutocrats - a bunch of privileged people with control over the levers - that will do anything to hold on to their power.

[SirLaughsAlot]

No I do not think you are highly inaccurate. In fact I agree with most of your opinions. The only part that I do not agree with is whether people in China "care about" 1989. I would say that the majority want to care about the event, but are simply not allowed to care. I have literally not seen any single Chinese forum where this kind of topic is not banned. With the ridiculous level of internet restrictions in China, I just don't see how it is possible to act in a way that shows they care about the Massacre.

Clearly, we agree on the fundamental facts of this matter. The CCP is a force to be reckoned with, and I
understand why the population might feel powerless to do anything about it.

They say "necessity is the mother of invention" and the CCP have been clever enough to create an economic
boom which has helped many people in various ways. However, the boom has also helped the CCP remain in place, by
giving the people some affluence to keep them reasonably happy with life - happy enough not to worry too much about
the relatively recent past, or the current lack of genuine freedom.