Enjoy the daily Telegraph. Murdoch media always tells the truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by warwick1
https://www.businessinsider.com/domi...ox-news-2023-3
Enjoy the daily Telegraph. Murdoch media always tells the truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by warwick1
https://www.businessinsider.com/domi...ox-news-2023-3
I'd say to look at countries with lowest rates of crime - Singapore and Japan.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReginaldBubbles
Japan's lower crime rates may have something to do with cultural values of "not to stand out" and "go with the flow" but there's also the way they treat their laws - all detainees are considered guilty until proven innocent. And if you've mistakenly done time in prison even when proven innocent years later, the only thing you'd receive is an apology.
Singapore however doesn't have the same cultural values as Japan and follows a Westminster based law as any former British colony such as yours truly, Australia. Their harsh, almost dictatorial laws means that citizen obedience is very strong. And once upon a time the Singaporean government even banned anal sex regardless of hetero or homosexual relationships (homosexuality is also banned there if I'm not mistaken), and there were people charged for anal sex whether through false accusations or through being caught red handed.
The problem here is that in most Western countries, juvies are treated as if they have zero faults. Maybe if they're under 10 years old they can be forgiven but they shouldn't be treated as if they're a 5 year old up until the age of 18. Some high school rape cases gets written off with a warning or community service just because they're not yet 18 and this impacts the rape victims severely. You can't just tell a rapist to do mandatory yoga classes, they might even rape the yoga teacher and other students while class is in session.
WTF has Donald Trump got to do with juvies?Quote:
Originally Posted by ReginaldBubbles
Well I read it again and couldn't leave it there.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldfishMan
Most prisons in the US are private so it's about making money. America is a business not a community.
And putting it in inverted commas doesn't actually make them not kids.
#crimeuniversity
It's to do with the Murdoch media promoting punitive justice to get internet clicks. The article is about how Murdoch doesn't give a shit about the truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnJones
Do I have to explain everything?
C'mon dude, theoretical hyperbole is the lowest form of debateQuote:
Originally Posted by JohnJones
First of all it seems like you're running out of facts and ideas to debate on so you're gaslighting people in order to make your bruised ego feel better. The instructions was simple:Quote:
Originally Posted by ReginaldBubbles
"Yes do everyone a favour and leave it there"
Then you go on posting a link unrelated to the issue, or what you'd like to call a "debate". Very typical for someone with a bruised ego to have a last word in the attempts to bruise the ego of others.
Then now you're calling my opinion a "theoretical hyperbole". I call it an opinion because unlike an egotistical immature adult, a matured person can respect an opinion, therefore I don't need to justify it as "facts" although there is a likelihood that serial rapists will continue raping if not jailed or castrated already.
Like the previous poster said, LEAVE already. No one needs to see you wimping over bruised egos.
Does that mean the private prisons are run by lawmakers, judges and juries? Because prison sentences are not handed down by CEOs and board members the last time I checked.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReginaldBubbles
The Australian immigration detention is run jointly by the DIBP and a private company called Serco. Refugees and people whose visas are cancelled are not put there by Serco, in fact the DIBP would rather deport these people if not for their refugee claims and other visa processing issues because it's costing taxpayers money to feed, clothe and accommodate them.
You're taking this issue down a path you know nothing about and talking out of your arse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnJones
My ego is fine dude, I'm only interested in the facts but you seem super defensive so I apologise. And the privatisation thing leads to corruption. Do some digging on Serco contracts and whether it seems like the government gave a fuck how much those contracts cost.
"You can't just tell a rapist to do mandatory yoga classes, they might even rape the yoga teacher and other students while class is in session."
Not sure anyone was proposing this? Unsupervised yoga classes where anyone can just rape anyone? Hypothetical hyperbole, aka gaslighting. But I note your preference for opinion to facts.
Also I don't take "instructions".
Can anyone provide any evidence where more punitive action resulted in lower crime rates and a lower recidivism rate?
More interested in facts than opinion and personal attacks.
Defensive is just an opinion, which I respect. Also the fact that you apologised - apology accepted.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReginaldBubbles
Rape doesn't happen in public where everyone can see. Rapists are opportunists, they always stalk and wait out for the best moments to do the crime. Again I would rather call this an opinion rather than fact because I have no way of proving that rapists think this way all the time, just that if I were to put myself in the shoes of a rapist that's what I might do.
Like mentioned in my previous reply, Singapore has a very strict yet effective rule of law that has successfully made it the country with the lowest crime rates in the world without resorting to cultural brainwashing like Japan. Many Singaporeans are not culturally civic in the first place, for example they may spit, chew gum, smoke cigarettes far from the nearest smoking areas when outside their own country but when back in Singapore they suddenly become a model citizen. Strict regard to consequences does work, however this may cause a high influx of immigration export because people may want more freedom.
All private companies are corrupt depending on the business arrangements. Serco is no exception, but they don't dictate who gets to stay in immigration detention or not, it is DIBP. The same as prisons in US, it is either the police, sheriff's office, judge or the DA that determines who gets to stay in prison and for how long. Whether the prison gets overcrowded or not the private companies are still getting the same pay, and I'm pretty they'd rather not have an overcrowded prison because it'll reduce their profits.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnJones
So a yoga class is probably not the best place to rape someone.
In the US and also some private prisons here now the companies get paid per prisoner. And the contracts guarantee a certain number of prisoners per year so the justice and immigration system have to provide. There's not actually any incentive to reduce crime, the only incentive is to look like you're being tough about it. More people go to prison and are institutionalised into a life of crime, crime continues, politicians rhetoric gets tougher..
With kids there's an opportunity to steer them in a different direction and make them feel like a part of society before they get worse.
And does anyone here want public caning like Singapore? It's also one of the most boring countries in the world :shout:
Sounds alot like what conspiracy theorists would bring up...Quote:
Originally Posted by ReginaldBubbles
One of my friend is a social worker who attends a dormitory for troubled kids that are removed from their parents. Some have both parents in jail and no relatives who wants to take them in while others are removed from their parents because they're druggies. No matter how young you try to steer them into the "good side of society", they've been exposed to so much family violence that they've become like human parrots mimicking their parent's behaviours. In some cases if they don't like the social worker they will run out of the dorm into the parking lot and smash the social worker's car.
These kids know no bounds anymore. And they know their actions have no consequences therefore they can do anything. Maybe these kids should be sent to Singapore to experience public caning. Call it a "field trip".
Let me make it simple. Almost everyone in our society knows that juvenile crime is a problem that is inadequately handled by the system. The criminals know this, there are gangs that actively recruit and use juvies. The cops, prosecutors and magistrates know this but they can’t do anything about it because they can’t instantly change legislation. Journos, ordinary citizens caught in the midst, all know it doesn’t work. I’ll say it again: look at Alice Springs and tell me, is it working?Quote:
Originally Posted by ReginaldBubbles
And now we talk about adult crime. All these research and stats mean nothing without understanding the context. What is it like in that particular country? Take Norway for example. You seem to like how it works there. This country enjoys a per-capita GDP that is second in Europe only to Luxembourg. It is a rich, oil-producing nation, constantly gets awarded #1 in HDI globally, and provides extremely generous welfare to its citizens. I think it’s fair to say that not many people go hungry or live poorly there.
Against this backdrop, it is not surprising at all to see that the crime rate is very low and it would be a lot easier to reform criminals with “yoga classes”.
Just a little point on sexual assault and recidivism rates, there used to be a program here in NSW prisons that worked with inmates that had been convicted of sexual assault. For inmates that successfully completed the program less than 3% reoffended within an 8 year period while the rate of reoffending for inmates that didn’t complete the program is closer to 90% within 10 years of release. As an incentive for people to complete the program they got a sentence reduction if they passed.
The program was shutdown by the current Liberal government because they don’t believe in being “soft on crime”. This is the punitive punishment mind set that doesn’t work when it becomes more about punishing crime than preventing it from happening in the first place
If you want the other side of the coin I was told some interesting stuff about crime in Tonga and Samoa. Basically if someone gets convicted there not only do they get punished but so do their parents and the village chief as they should have done a better job raising them.
They also mentioned they had a different punishments for if the victim was local or a tourist as they rely so heavily on tourism. Essentially if a tourist is the victim of a crime they throw the local in a hole and loose the key.
The problem most western countries like Australia have is that prisoners have rights. Not only do we have to provide them with food and water, but we have to provide them with TVs, gyms, exercise yards, libraries, reading materials, etc. That's basically why being sent to prison is considered as a holiday for a lot of criminals. None of them are afraid of the prison system.
What we should do is take all their rights away (as they have done to their victims). Prisons should consist of nothing more than a 6 foot x 4 foot room with a mattress and toilet and that's it, a small "cat door" at the bottom to slide in a cheese sandwich and a bottle of water. And that's where you stay for the term of your imprisonment. No contact with any other prisoners, that way it eliminates the drug problem as well as an older prisoner teaching new recruits. It would also stop puny little guys going in beefing up on steroids and gym workouts and coming out testorine fueled gorillas itching to kill or rape someone.
It would cost the government (us as taxpayers) less as you'd have less need of guards. It would also put fear back into going to prison to most of the criminals knowing that they're going into solitary.
And I'm not joking, I'd seriously do this even to juveniles.
My problem with the handling of juvenile crime is how "juvenile" is defined. It does not make sense to me that someone who commited a crime 1 day before he turns 18 would be treated as a juvy and be spared the full force of the law, but on the other hand if he'd done it 1 day after it would be vastly different. Did he just learn all about being an adult overnight?Quote:
Originally Posted by dotcumdotinyou
I can't say that I know what's best, but there must be a better way than this.
My problem is the forgetting of the victims and the lefties worrying more about the "little" crims, The lunatic Greens are pushing for the voting age to be 16, so then that means they should be sentenced as an adult..........
Dotcumdotinyou - buddy you are an absolute reject of a human being. No clue about the real world you should stay behind your computer
Why??Quote:
Originally Posted by CantCme
Perhaps that view is a bit extreme but people can be forgiven for having strong views like that.
As a society we’ve gone soft. People need to accept the consequences for their behaviour….regardless of their age. If they break the law they should be punished for it. Not given a token slap on the wrist. And if that means they get locked up with no access to the creature comforts that we as a first world country are used to so be it.
The problem as I see it is we are now into the third generation of people who have become used to no discipline from a young age. So there is no respect for police, teachers etc. If a mother attempts to discipline a misbehaving child while in public with any more than a slightly raised voice she is at risk of being reported for child abuse.
I grew up in a time where if a kid played up at school they got the cane. Police could kick an errant kid up the arse and send him on his way. Nobody got seriously hurt but people in authority were respected.
We’ve dug ourselves a huge hole and I can’t see how we’re ever going to get out of it.
And when they get out they'll be perfect and useful members of society with no mental or physical health problems and won't cost the community any money at all and won't commit any further crimes.Quote:
Originally Posted by dotcumdotinyou
And you'll feel good knowing they've been punished and can live your best alpha male tough guy life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CountryPunter
I'm with you there mate...
Back when a man could beat and rape his wife and it was considered a "family matter". You could push a fag off a cliff and the cops would barely look into it. Those were the days...Quote:
Originally Posted by CountryPunter
I have to say I am appalled by the majority of comments and the tone of this thread.
Too many political viewpoints and absolutely nonsensical analogies like the one above.
You do know that nowadays (and then) you could rundown anyone you wanted in your car, drink a bottle of whiskey after and be very unlikely to face jail time. So the good old days are alive and well. Or you can steal millions from your employer, shove the money under your mattress and claim you are bipolar and blew it all on gambling whilst drunk and depressed and maybe if you are unlucky cop a year or two on a prison farm then go home to collect your cash.
There is no point in arguing such puerile and selective examples.
This is a very polar argument. To punish and to hold to account or to educate and forgive, leaving a very large grey area in between.
Most importantly not all criminal and indeed people in general are the same or respond the same to any situation.
Sure some prisoners are able to be rehabilitated. Some are not.
The simple answer is that the reason for imprisoning law breakers is ostensibly 2 fold.
1. Remove the offenders right to be part of regular society.
2. Protect the other members of said society
If you cannot live by the rules the rest of society does then you lose your right to function in that society
Sure rehabilitation is a noble and ideal target but punishment for your actions must come first.
We have seen the gradual decline of personal responsibility for too long to the point now where every action you make is blamed on someone or something in your past.
This is very much to blame for the lack of respect of law and order in society.
The masses generally have no respect for judiciary in giving fair sentences and the criminals see loopholes and Get out of Jail free cards everywhere.
Bad behaviour must be suitably punished.
There is a plethora of history on this and I am reluctant to say too much because I cannot be arsed to point you at the relevant info and it would seriously consume a few months of my life to do it properly.
Similarly citing stats with no background info is a very weak way to make a point so I will refrain.
I will however say that just because a country has high incarceration % does not mean the system of incarceration is at fault.
Take a look at some of the Eastern European countries for example who simply release offenders on parole and do not monitor them. They even allow them to leave their country and go on to commit crimes elsewhere. This was rife in the UK around 15 yrs ago and was a large factor in the EU denying some countries membership.
I think I have said enough otherwise I will start doing what I am complaining about others doing.
In summation.
Crime has to be punished and yes with incarceration/exclusion
Personal responsibility has to be acknowledged
Rehabilitation can be done during that period.
Not all people are redeemable.
Give them a haircut! Put them in the army!