Teenage boys arrested for robbing spree in five Sydney brothels

[ReginaldBubbles]

Ok Mr Bubbles. So, do you have a better idea than incarceration to reduce crime? Let's hear it then...

I'm no expert but there's plenty of examples if you google it.

Just one example. https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-48885846

Do you actually think that harsher punishment is a deterrent or prevents people in certain doing it again? All the stats say it increases it and costs more in the long run.

[ReginaldBubbles]

How are these guys doing? The United States has 4.2% of the world's population.

Top 10 Countries with the most people in prison

United States — 2,068,800
China — 1,690,000
Brazil — 811,707
India — 478,600
Russia — 471,490
Thailand — 309,282
Turkey — 291,198
Indonesia — 266,259
Mexico — 220,866
Iran — 189,000

Top 10 Countries with the highest rate of incarceration (per 100,000)

United States — 629
Rwanda — 580
Turkmenistan — 576
El Salvador — 564
Cuba — 510
Palau — 478
British Virgin Islands (U.K. territory) — 477
Thailand — 445
Panama — 423
Saint Kitts and Nevis — 423

[GoldfishMan]

I'm no expert but there's plenty of examples if you google it.

Just one example. https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-48885846

Do you actually think that harsher punishment is a deterrent or prevents people in certain doing it again? All the stats say it increases it and costs more in the long run.

Uh, yah bro, I do. I really do think that harsher punishment is a deterrent.

And how about I ask you this: do you really think that these Western nations have embraced all these alternative "reform" methods because they knew that they were better, and that they were doing all this for the good of everyone involved? Hmm?

Have you ever considered that perhaps they started looking at all these "alternatives", simply because they've budgeted all the funds for proper criminal reform out of their governments, and now the system that they have left is completely inadequate to do anything BUT try something "alternative"?

As a previous poster said, take a look at what's happening in Alice Springs, bro. Yoga classes will do nothing for these stoned-out-of oblivion "kids".

[ReginaldBubbles]

Uh, yah bro, I do. I really do think that harsher punishment is a deterrent.

And how about I ask you this: do you really think that these Western nations have embraced all these alternative "reform" methods because they knew that they were better, and that they were doing all this for the good of everyone involved? Hmm?

Have you ever considered that perhaps they started looking at all these "alternatives", simply because they've budgeted all the funds for proper criminal reform out of their governments, and now the system that they have left is completely inadequate to do anything BUT try something "alternative"?

As a previous poster said, take a look at what's happening in Alice Springs, bro. Yoga classes will do nothing for these stoned-out-of oblivion "kids".

Well it's not about what you think, it's about the stats and the research and if you're gonna go with your feelings instead then I'll leave it there.

[warwick1]

Well it's not about what you think, it's about the stats and the research and if you're gonna go with your feelings instead then I'll leave it there.

Yes do everyone a favour and leave it there

[ReginaldBubbles]

Yes do everyone a favour and leave it there

Enjoy the daily Telegraph. Murdoch media always tells the truth.

https://www.businessinsider.com/domi...ox-news-2023-3

[JohnJones]

Well it's not about what you think, it's about the stats and the research and if you're gonna go with your feelings instead then I'll leave it there.

I'd say to look at countries with lowest rates of crime - Singapore and Japan.

Japan's lower crime rates may have something to do with cultural values of "not to stand out" and "go with the flow" but there's also the way they treat their laws - all detainees are considered guilty until proven innocent. And if you've mistakenly done time in prison even when proven innocent years later, the only thing you'd receive is an apology.

Singapore however doesn't have the same cultural values as Japan and follows a Westminster based law as any former British colony such as yours truly, Australia. Their harsh, almost dictatorial laws means that citizen obedience is very strong. And once upon a time the Singaporean government even banned anal sex regardless of hetero or homosexual relationships (homosexuality is also banned there if I'm not mistaken), and there were people charged for anal sex whether through false accusations or through being caught red handed.

The problem here is that in most Western countries, juvies are treated as if they have zero faults. Maybe if they're under 10 years old they can be forgiven but they shouldn't be treated as if they're a 5 year old up until the age of 18. Some high school rape cases gets written off with a warning or community service just because they're not yet 18 and this impacts the rape victims severely. You can't just tell a rapist to do mandatory yoga classes, they might even rape the yoga teacher and other students while class is in session.

[JohnJones]

Enjoy the daily Telegraph. Murdoch media always tells the truth.

https://www.businessinsider.com/domi...ox-news-2023-3

WTF has Donald Trump got to do with juvies?

[ReginaldBubbles]

And how about I ask you this: do you really think that these Western nations have embraced all these alternative "reform" methods because they knew that they were better, and that they were doing all this for the good of everyone involved? Hmm?

"kids".

Well I read it again and couldn't leave it there.

Most prisons in the US are private so it's about making money. America is a business not a community.

And putting it in inverted commas doesn't actually make them not kids.

#crimeuniversity

[ReginaldBubbles]

WTF has Donald Trump got to do with juvies?

It's to do with the Murdoch media promoting punitive justice to get internet clicks. The article is about how Murdoch doesn't give a shit about the truth.
Do I have to explain everything?

[ReginaldBubbles]

You can't just tell a rapist to do mandatory yoga classes, they might even rape the yoga teacher and other students while class is in session.

C'mon dude, theoretical hyperbole is the lowest form of debate

[JohnJones]

C'mon dude, theoretical hyperbole is the lowest form of debate

First of all it seems like you're running out of facts and ideas to debate on so you're gaslighting people in order to make your bruised ego feel better. The instructions was simple:

"Yes do everyone a favour and leave it there"

Then you go on posting a link unrelated to the issue, or what you'd like to call a "debate". Very typical for someone with a bruised ego to have a last word in the attempts to bruise the ego of others.

Then now you're calling my opinion a "theoretical hyperbole". I call it an opinion because unlike an egotistical immature adult, a matured person can respect an opinion, therefore I don't need to justify it as "facts" although there is a likelihood that serial rapists will continue raping if not jailed or castrated already.

Like the previous poster said, LEAVE already. No one needs to see you wimping over bruised egos.

[JohnJones]

Well I read it again and couldn't leave it there.

Most prisons in the US are private so it's about making money. America is a business not a community.

And putting it in inverted commas doesn't actually make them not kids.

#crimeuniversity

Does that mean the private prisons are run by lawmakers, judges and juries? Because prison sentences are not handed down by CEOs and board members the last time I checked.

The Australian immigration detention is run jointly by the DIBP and a private company called Serco. Refugees and people whose visas are cancelled are not put there by Serco, in fact the DIBP would rather deport these people if not for their refugee claims and other visa processing issues because it's costing taxpayers money to feed, clothe and accommodate them.

You're taking this issue down a path you know nothing about and talking out of your arse.

[ReginaldBubbles]

Does that mean the private prisons are run by lawmakers, judges and juries? Because prison sentences are not handed down by CEOs and board members the last time I checked.

The Australian immigration detention is run jointly by the DIBP and a private company called Serco. Refugees and people whose visas are cancelled are not put there by Serco, in fact the DIBP would rather deport these people if not for their refugee claims and other visa processing issues because it's costing taxpayers money to feed, clothe and accommodate them.

You're taking this issue down a path you know nothing about and talking out of your arse.

My ego is fine dude, I'm only interested in the facts but you seem super defensive so I apologise. And the privatisation thing leads to corruption. Do some digging on Serco contracts and whether it seems like the government gave a fuck how much those contracts cost.

"You can't just tell a rapist to do mandatory yoga classes, they might even rape the yoga teacher and other students while class is in session."
Not sure anyone was proposing this? Unsupervised yoga classes where anyone can just rape anyone? Hypothetical hyperbole, aka gaslighting. But I note your preference for opinion to facts.
Also I don't take "instructions".

Can anyone provide any evidence where more punitive action resulted in lower crime rates and a lower recidivism rate?
More interested in facts than opinion and personal attacks.

[JohnJones]

My ego is fine dude, I'm only interested in the facts but you seem super defensive so I apologise. And the privatisation thing leads to corruption. Do some digging on Serco contracts and whether it seems like the government gave a fuck how much those contracts cost.

"You can't just tell a rapist to do mandatory yoga classes, they might even rape the yoga teacher and other students while class is in session."
Not sure anyone was proposing this? Unsupervised yoga classes where anyone can just rape anyone? Hypothetical hyperbole, aka gaslighting. But I note your preference for opinion to facts.
Also I don't take "instructions".

Can anyone provide any evidence where more punitive action resulted in lower crime rates and a lower recidivism rate?
More interested in facts than opinion and personal attacks.

Defensive is just an opinion, which I respect. Also the fact that you apologised - apology accepted.

Rape doesn't happen in public where everyone can see. Rapists are opportunists, they always stalk and wait out for the best moments to do the crime. Again I would rather call this an opinion rather than fact because I have no way of proving that rapists think this way all the time, just that if I were to put myself in the shoes of a rapist that's what I might do.

Like mentioned in my previous reply, Singapore has a very strict yet effective rule of law that has successfully made it the country with the lowest crime rates in the world without resorting to cultural brainwashing like Japan. Many Singaporeans are not culturally civic in the first place, for example they may spit, chew gum, smoke cigarettes far from the nearest smoking areas when outside their own country but when back in Singapore they suddenly become a model citizen. Strict regard to consequences does work, however this may cause a high influx of immigration export because people may want more freedom.

All private companies are corrupt depending on the business arrangements. Serco is no exception, but they don't dictate who gets to stay in immigration detention or not, it is DIBP. The same as prisons in US, it is either the police, sheriff's office, judge or the DA that determines who gets to stay in prison and for how long. Whether the prison gets overcrowded or not the private companies are still getting the same pay, and I'm pretty they'd rather not have an overcrowded prison because it'll reduce their profits.

[ReginaldBubbles]

Defensive is just an opinion, which I respect. Also the fact that you apologised - apology accepted.

Rape doesn't happen in public where everyone can see. Rapists are opportunists, they always stalk and wait out for the best moments to do the crime. Again I would rather call this an opinion rather than fact because I have no way of proving that rapists think this way all the time, just that if I were to put myself in the shoes of a rapist that's what I might do.

Like mentioned in my previous reply, Singapore has a very strict yet effective rule of law that has successfully made it the country with the lowest crime rates in the world without resorting to cultural brainwashing like Japan. Many Singaporeans are not culturally civic in the first place, for example they may spit, chew gum, smoke cigarettes far from the nearest smoking areas when outside their own country but when back in Singapore they suddenly become a model citizen. Strict regard to consequences does work, however this may cause a high influx of immigration export because people may want more freedom.

All private companies are corrupt depending on the business arrangements. Serco is no exception, but they don't dictate who gets to stay in immigration detention or not, it is DIBP. The same as prisons in US, it is either the police, sheriff's office, judge or the DA that determines who gets to stay in prison and for how long. Whether the prison gets overcrowded or not the private companies are still getting the same pay, and I'm pretty they'd rather not have an overcrowded prison because it'll reduce their profits.

So a yoga class is probably not the best place to rape someone.

In the US and also some private prisons here now the companies get paid per prisoner. And the contracts guarantee a certain number of prisoners per year so the justice and immigration system have to provide. There's not actually any incentive to reduce crime, the only incentive is to look like you're being tough about it. More people go to prison and are institutionalised into a life of crime, crime continues, politicians rhetoric gets tougher..

With kids there's an opportunity to steer them in a different direction and make them feel like a part of society before they get worse.

And does anyone here want public caning like Singapore? It's also one of the most boring countries in the world

[JohnJones]

So a yoga class is probably not the best place to rape someone.

In the US and also some private prisons here now the companies get paid per prisoner. And the contracts guarantee a certain number of prisoners per year so the justice and immigration system have to provide. There's not actually any incentive to reduce crime, the only incentive is to look like you're being tough about it. More people go to prison and are institutionalised into a life of crime, crime continues, politicians rhetoric gets tougher..

With kids there's an opportunity to steer them in a different direction and make them feel like a part of society before they get worse.

And does anyone here want public caning like Singapore? It's also one of the most boring countries in the world

Sounds alot like what conspiracy theorists would bring up...

One of my friend is a social worker who attends a dormitory for troubled kids that are removed from their parents. Some have both parents in jail and no relatives who wants to take them in while others are removed from their parents because they're druggies. No matter how young you try to steer them into the "good side of society", they've been exposed to so much family violence that they've become like human parrots mimicking their parent's behaviours. In some cases if they don't like the social worker they will run out of the dorm into the parking lot and smash the social worker's car.

These kids know no bounds anymore. And they know their actions have no consequences therefore they can do anything. Maybe these kids should be sent to Singapore to experience public caning. Call it a "field trip".

[GoldfishMan]

Well I read it again and couldn't leave it there.

Most prisons in the US are private so it's about making money. America is a business not a community.

And putting it in inverted commas doesn't actually make them not kids.

#crimeuniversity

Let me make it simple. Almost everyone in our society knows that juvenile crime is a problem that is inadequately handled by the system. The criminals know this, there are gangs that actively recruit and use juvies. The cops, prosecutors and magistrates know this but they can’t do anything about it because they can’t instantly change legislation. Journos, ordinary citizens caught in the midst, all know it doesn’t work. I’ll say it again: look at Alice Springs and tell me, is it working?

And now we talk about adult crime. All these research and stats mean nothing without understanding the context. What is it like in that particular country? Take Norway for example. You seem to like how it works there. This country enjoys a per-capita GDP that is second in Europe only to Luxembourg. It is a rich, oil-producing nation, constantly gets awarded #1 in HDI globally, and provides extremely generous welfare to its citizens. I think it’s fair to say that not many people go hungry or live poorly there.

Against this backdrop, it is not surprising at all to see that the crime rate is very low and it would be a lot easier to reform criminals with “yoga classes”.

[Daffy]

Just a little point on sexual assault and recidivism rates, there used to be a program here in NSW prisons that worked with inmates that had been convicted of sexual assault. For inmates that successfully completed the program less than 3% reoffended within an 8 year period while the rate of reoffending for inmates that didn’t complete the program is closer to 90% within 10 years of release. As an incentive for people to complete the program they got a sentence reduction if they passed.

The program was shutdown by the current Liberal government because they don’t believe in being “soft on crime”. This is the punitive punishment mind set that doesn’t work when it becomes more about punishing crime than preventing it from happening in the first place

[Daffy]

If you want the other side of the coin I was told some interesting stuff about crime in Tonga and Samoa. Basically if someone gets convicted there not only do they get punished but so do their parents and the village chief as they should have done a better job raising them.

They also mentioned they had a different punishments for if the victim was local or a tourist as they rely so heavily on tourism. Essentially if a tourist is the victim of a crime they throw the local in a hole and loose the key.