When does No mean Yes ?

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Originally Posted by AHLUNGOR

Is this not one of main reasons why people go to RnT shops and always try to push the limits and boundaries of the MLs and get satisfaction out of it - almost a sense of triumph !! Eventhough they know all too well that they can get a sure thing in a FS shop with better facilities and services. But getting the MLs to do things and services they don't normally do or give in to your advances/demands/requests is just a temptation and kicks too hard to resist...........lol - I must say, only for some punters, but the numbers are growing............haha

Cheers

:smile:

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spot on, 1000% true

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Originally Posted by Sextus

Here is an example from a recent cmk_76 review on Yumi where the blanket "no means no, no exceptions" cliche' quoted above seems to have about as much worth as all such generalisations do. Sex is about the imagination, the psychology, as much as it is about the physical sensations. (My bold emphasis added in cmk's excerpt.)
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I think you are on the wrong track Sextus. Women meaning no when they say no is not a cliche. It is a line in the sand between the sexes; and the reason you are seeing millions of women protest in India over sexual violence; and the reason Julia Gillard won so many plaudits for her misogyny speech. Both are emphatically saying that there is are absolutes in gender interactions that, for the sake of civil society, must not be breached. There is a very clear distinction between the playfulness of love making and the communication between two people involved in a commercial transaction.

I agree with you that cmk_76's review is a brilliant piece of writing. He is describing intimacy from a long-standing relationship. I, myself, have written on this forum about how easy it is to get sex from massage girls once you establish a rapport. Once a woman is working in the sex industry then it seems there is not much difference between tugging a bloke and fucking him. But, and it is very important but, she is in control of the situation. She has the power to set all the boundaries. That is the contract when you a pay a woman for sex. It is not the consensual form of an interaction as when two people meet and agree to have sex. It is a very specific buying of a specific service. If you ask and she says no then that is the end of the matter. If, however, you find there is some spark and return to see her on multiple occasions then maybe she will offer you something different.

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Originally Posted by Wayne

I think you are on the wrong track Sextus. Women meaning no when they say no is not a cliche. It is a line in the sand between the sexes; and the reason you are seeing millions of women protest in India over sexual violence; and the reason Julia Gillard won so many plaudits for her misogyny speech. Both are emphatically saying that there is are absolutes in gender interactions that, for the sake of civil society, must not be breached. There is a very clear distinction between the playfulness of love making and the communication between two people involved in a commercial transaction.

I agree with you that cmk_76's review is a brilliant piece of writing. He is describing intimacy from a long-standing relationship. I, myself, have written on this forum about how easy it is to get sex from massage girls once you establish a rapport. Once a woman is working in the sex industry then it seems there is not much difference between tugging a bloke and fucking him. But, and it is very important but, she is in control of the situation. She has the power to set all the boundaries. That is the contract when you a pay a woman for sex. It is not the consensual form of an interaction as when two people meet and agree to have sex. It is a very specific buying of a specific service. If you ask and she says no then that is the end of the matter. If, however, you find there is some spark and return to see her on multiple occasions then maybe she will offer you something different.

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That's a good one, Wayne ! :miao:

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Originally Posted by Wayne

I think you are on the wrong track Sextus. Women meaning no when they say no is not a cliche. It is a line in the sand between the sexes; and the reason you are seeing millions of women protest in India over sexual violence; and the reason Julia Gillard won so many plaudits for her misogyny speech. Both are emphatically saying that there is are absolutes in gender interactions that, for the sake of civil society, must not be breached. There is a very clear distinction between the playfulness of love making and the communication between two people involved in a commercial transaction.

I agree with you that cmk_76's review is a brilliant piece of writing. He is describing intimacy from a long-standing relationship. I, myself, have written on this forum about how easy it is to get sex from massage girls once you establish a rapport. Once a woman is working in the sex industry then it seems there is not much difference between tugging a bloke and fucking him. But, and it is very important but, she is in control of the situation. She has the power to set all the boundaries. That is the contract when you a pay a woman for sex. It is not the consensual form of an interaction as when two people meet and agree to have sex. It is a very specific buying of a specific service. If you ask and she says no then that is the end of the matter. If, however, you find there is some spark and return to see her on multiple occasions then maybe she will offer you something different.

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(This thread seems to be mainly about ml's. Sorry but I've never been to an ml, just fs, so I am relating the thread topic to my experience as they both do apply and cross over. So my remarks are only applying to fs, as I lack any experience with ml's, but your words are probably true regarding ml's as their boundaries are much more overt.)

I agree with your last remarks that, as with cmk_76, it is more about feeling your way through a (fs) session.

But the iron clad rules as implied in your " emphatic absolutes in gender relations," "specific buying of a specific service" and "the communication of two people involved in a commercial transaction" remarks all sound really cold, shiveringly cold, and that has rarely been my experience, and I know that it hasn't been your experience either.

And I've read many a review on this forum where such arctic commercial and gender coldness is JUST NOT THERE. I don't think the warmth of the majority of my encounters is all in my mind either, because I'm not that credulous. Maybe just a little bit credulous, but not too much!

In the heat of mating with a hot girl, what I am suggesting, as a devils's advocate, is that the boundaries are much more flexible and pliable and looser. A verbal "no" I would certainly obey, but a half-hearted restraining hand? That is another matter to be considered in the context in which it happens.

In that situation if the restraining hand is another form of "no means no' well, it not only sounds like a simplistic advertising slogan - it actually is one! (There is no subtlety possible when you are trying to communicate a message to the masses, and I agree with the slogan's use to all those dumb fucks out there.)

To use the shocking Indian incident to support an advertising slogan is overkill in the context of this discussion. The slogan sure does apply to that incident of course, but how does it apply to sensitive and aware - if mildly (or otherwise) - sexually experimental people like myself, cmk_76 and KickAss?

Look, we don't go into politics on his forum, but Gillard's speech does have a relevance here, so I'll say a truth or two about it. It was the most contrived example of manufactured offence ever uttered in parliament. That is saying something! It was given as a deflecting defence to prevent Peter Slipper being removed as speaker for his SMS sexual harrassment of his gay staffer. So she cites soft examples of how "offended" she has been at so-called misogeny by Abbot to support a sexual harasser in the speaker's chair! Examples like the c**t (Abbot) standing in front of a 'ditch the witch" sign that he didn't even know was there! It was brought into place behind him after he started his speech to Australia's version of the Tea Party. I saw it happen.

And I read Slipper's harrassing and filthy texts to his gay staffer too. Never before has hypocrisy soared so high in parliament as when she gave that speech. It is a wonder the soaring ceilings there were capable of holding it in.

In fact, this was a "gender" card, played as a last resort that she has been keeping in reserve to pull out ever since the polls went so far south. I've never been a lib supporter, and not much of a labor supporter these days either. But it was just obscene to see her use a real - if humourless, beloved of humourless people - issue in such a contrived and hypocritical way.

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Originally Posted by Sextus

In the heat of mating with a hot girl, what I am suggesting, as a devils's advocate, is that the boundaries are much more flexible and pliable and looser. A verbal "no" I would certainly obey, but a half-hearted restraining hand? That is another matter to be considered in the context in which it happens.

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I suggest you do it the other way round. If you can turn a verbal "no" into a "yes" with persuasion or bribery, good on you. But to violate a half-hearted restraining hand is definitely going against her will ( at least half-hearted will ) !

It's cmk_76's fault! He got me thinking. All of you are getting me thinking too much!

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Originally Posted by Sextus

It's cmk_76's fault! He got me thinking. All of you are getting me thinking too much!

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I think you are right. It's not really that difficult to work out.

If some more money means she will agree to do something extra then obviously she is OK with it but if she physically resists or gives a stern no then that's the end of the story - just enjoy what she is prepared to offer and see someone else next time.

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Originally Posted by wilisno

That's also one reason I don't go RnT

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I may be the opposite ...

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Originally Posted by Sextus

Here is an example from a recent cmk_76 review on Yumi where the blanket "no means no, no exceptions" cliche' quoted above seems to have about as much worth as all such generalisations do. Sex is about the imagination, the psychology, as much as it is about the physical sensations. (My bold emphasis added in cmk's excerpt.)

"In other sessions with her, I would use the thumb and index to insert both openings, while the tongue is duelling with her clitoris. I get really excited at her wriggling around, vocalising the ‘torture and pain’ that has been inflicted. This would only turn me on even further and encourage me to pervert further in depth, even when she would place her hand to pull my fingers away. It may seem like I was forcing myself on her, but it was all part of the intense act of indulgence between Yumi and I. It was almost like play rape.

Her moaning, body wriggling, tortured expressions would drive me wild and my violent act of pleasure begins. A favourite technique of mine would be to hold both her hands by the wrists with one hand, while I penetrate both orifices with the other hand, whilst frenetically tonguing her as well. Of course, I have, at every time, pushed just a little further with Yumi, as she satisfies my every insatiable sexual appetite."

I too have encountered hands reaching down to stop or pull me away from something I have been doing, and was very much liking doing. Still being inexperienced (but rather famously learning every day now under the influence of this forum) I have immediately obeyed the instruction of that restraining hand.

Reading this part of Cmk_76's report on Yumi (sorry, cmk_76 you do need to be more ruthless in editing out other excessive detail, so as not to dilute the impact of your excellent fiery stuff like the above) it made me think to start pushing some boundaries too. To maybe not be so passively obedient. I like the thought, for example, of the wrist lock used by cmk. Yoyo, the other day (the subject of a new report by me soon) allowed some of my tonguing of her arse, but then moved her hand down to dissaude me from it. I obeyed. Yet, encouraged by cmk now, I like the thought of responding to this in future with a FULLY PENETRATING DRAGON DRILL (which I still haven't done yet) Talk about a giving a stunning mutual charge! :slobber:

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Just to clarify that in the midst of my session (or any session for the matter) with Yumi, I have always backed off or restraint further urges, if she is not comfortable with the act. My report may depict that of a forceful nature on her, however be assured that I have never, nor do I intend to violate her in any way that has not been consented between 2 adults. (namely Yumi & I) This was after all, a 'fantasy' that was played out naturally as I was an aggressive, dominant figure and her, a 'submissive' maiden. I think you have raised an interesting point whilst reading my report, I might suggest a 'safe' word to stop any act if it gets uncomfortable. In saying that too, I would always discuss the act with her, when we are having a breather, usually when we're kissing. I respect her a lot, and would never hurt her verbally or physically, even during 'love-play'

I have been seeing her for over 2 years, and this is something that I have explored with her in the last year. I could never explore this sort of 'behaviour' with any other lady, as the rapport has been gradually built.

I didn't think that the report could bring about such debate?

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Originally Posted by moonlighter

Are you certain that it wasn't just his fantasy?

Believing no means yes will probably get you in real trouble with the law someday.

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Indeed moonlighter, it was a fantasy. Yumi knows me all too well that I have a passive, aggressive love making nature, but only with her.

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Originally Posted by Sextus

It's cmk_76's fault! He got me thinking. All of you are getting me thinking too much!

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Hahaha... don't think too much dear sextus, this might do your head in!

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Originally Posted by wilisno

A girl finally succumbs to the pressure or " persuasion " to perform an act which she initially refuses does not mean she's a willing participant. Although she might find it enjoyable afterwards or pretend to be enjoyable afterwards does not alter the fact that it wasn't her intention to provide that service.

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This has brought up a thought provoking point. I have always had brief discussions after the act, I was never told if she did not like it, as she would return the act on me ie. fingering my anus and dragon drilling me. I have tried anal with her once, to which she could not accomodate, I have not asked or 'persuaded' since. I have wanted to come in her mouth, but she has told me that she would not like to. Again, I have dropped the subject, and respected her wishes.

However, I do agree with your comment made.

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Originally Posted by cmk76

Hahaha... don't think too much dear sextus, this might do your head in!

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Aggressive love making nature ... is not a bad thing at all ...

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Originally Posted by Sextus

Here is an example from a recent cmk_76 review on Yumi where the blanket "no means no, no exceptions" cliche' quoted above seems to have about as much worth as all such generalisations do. Sex is about the imagination, the psychology, as much as it is about the physical sensations. (My bold emphasis added in cmk's excerpt.)

"In other sessions with her, I would use the thumb and index to insert both openings, while the tongue is duelling with her clitoris. I get really excited at her wriggling around, vocalising the ‘torture and pain’ that has been inflicted. This would only turn me on even further and encourage me to pervert further in depth, even when she would place her hand to pull my fingers away. It may seem like I was forcing myself on her, but it was all part of the intense act of indulgence between Yumi and I. It was almost like play rape.

Her moaning, body wriggling, tortured expressions would drive me wild and my violent act of pleasure begins. A favourite technique of mine would be to hold both her hands by the wrists with one hand, while I penetrate both orifices with the other hand, whilst frenetically tonguing her as well. Of course, I have, at every time, pushed just a little further with Yumi, as she satisfies my every insatiable sexual appetite."

I too have encountered hands reaching down to stop or pull me away from something I have been doing, and was very much liking doing. Still being inexperienced (but rather famously learning every day now under the influence of this forum) I have immediately obeyed the instruction of that restraining hand.

Reading this part of Cmk_76's report on Yumi (sorry, cmk_76 you do need to be more ruthless in editing out other excessive detail, so as not to dilute the impact of your excellent fiery stuff like the above) it made me think to start pushing some boundaries too. To maybe not be so passively obedient. I like the thought, for example, of the wrist lock used by cmk. Yoyo, the other day (the subject of a new report by me soon) allowed some of my tonguing of her arse, but then moved her hand down to dissaude me from it. I obeyed. Yet, encouraged by cmk now, I like the thought of responding to this in future with a FULLY PENETRATING DRAGON DRILL (which I still haven't done yet) Talk about a giving a stunning mutual charge! :slobber:

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I think with the 'right' lady, there is a possibility of yourself exploring that with her. You will need to build your rapport with your lady of choice and more importantly, get to know her body and 'feel' what she enjoys, as oppose to what we men 'think' ladies may enjoy.

For example, I have licked 15 years worth of oysters & abalones, only to be told that I was wasting my time, with the way I was doing it! It's only in the last 3 years that I have learnt to 'listen' for the ladies' rhythm (abdomen) and 'feel' for other body movements to rate my progress of every lick.

Prior to discovering this site back in September, but finally joining in November, I was only seeing Yumi for fs every month (over 2 years) and was very fortunate at the sexual compatibility and bedroom chemistry that we share. I felt a little 'guilty' for not seeing her for the last 2 months (prior to the 27th of Dec.) since having other experiences elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by cmk76

... I have tried anal with her once, to which she could not accomodate, ...

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As a matter of interest, cmk76, did you try stretching her arsehole with your fingers before trying to get your dick in?

Arseholes have a lot of stretchability but you have to get there gradually, at least with a lady who hasn't done it a lot before. I use my little finger first, then my middle finger and then my middle and index fingers together, all lubed of course.

you, like the MSM lemmings, miss the point completely Sextus.

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Originally Posted by Wayne

you, like the MSM lemmings, miss the point completely Sextus.

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Wayne, I don't know what an "MSM" lemming is, though I do know what a lemming is supposed to do, that is, leap off a cliff in a mass suicide. No-one has ever thought me to be any less than an individual though, never part of a mass movement. My input to the forum I hope is yet more evidence of this.

But I am really interested in your point of view and am grateful to hear it. Not only for its own sake, but like wilisno, I really like to debate. I imagine all those readers out there who never join in, but for whom we all struggle on these pages for the hearts and minds of.

I'd like to know, for example, what point it is that I am missing.

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Originally Posted by wilisno

A girl finally succumbs to the pressure or " persuasion " to perform an act which she initially refuses does not mean she's a willing participant. Although she might find it enjoyable afterwards or pretend to be enjoyable afterwards does not alter the fact that it wasn't her intention to provide that service.

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Sorry wilisno, my old sparring partner - though I am sure I am not the first or the last you have had - but the above reeks of PC, a milquetoast desire not to ever offend, ever.

Me? I'm on the side of red blood, of passion, of colour, and not blandsville where everything is beige and where everyone is bored with each other.

Maybe it is because I am impossible to offend myself that I have such short patience with the multitudes who look for it and consequently find it everywhere. (Like Julia Gillard pretended to be.)

Cmk_76? Given your passionate writing in that review excerpt, I wish you hadn't taken the PC response to the above either. It's boring, equivocating, and the very opposite of the passion you write with. That is where I see your honesty, and your full expression of yourself, unguarded.

I wish some of the ladies we are endlessy discussing could have a say too. Instead, we are filling up the vacuum from them with our own prejudices or PC rotes. If anything, they are stronger and more resilient than we men are. To treat then like crystal vases is insulting and demeaning to them. Evolution decided on a fundamental level most about male / female sexual roles and behaviours. What feels natural to us to do therefore - hey! here's a revelation - also feels natural to them too. And no amount of PC overlay will ever overcome that.

PS. You lot need a **** like me to stir the pot.

Sextus you are missing every point - are you polonius? If so you are a fucking idiot, if not I apologise.

Have you ever thought that the gentle hand movement to move your hand away is just to try and keep the mood as initimate as possible? I'm mostly an ML guy and have quite a few ML's as friends (and one as more), and I can tell you it can be very awkward for them when a guy tries to feel something he is not supposed to. Should she just say "No" and maybe ruin the mood? Or just gently move the idiots hand away and continue with the sexy stuff?

It's fucked up really, I read after reports where a guy says the girl told him not to touch her boobs or pussy or something, and they always say it was a downer on the session, and I guess in full service land it's a bit more expected. But what you claim as being a "half hearted" attempt at moving your hand away from her is probably just her trying to keep the mood and keep things sexy.

Anyway, the answer is simple. No always means no, whether it's said verbally or otherwise...and sextus you are an idiot.

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Originally Posted by Bracket

As a matter of interest, cmk76, did you try stretching her arsehole with your fingers before trying to get your dick in?

Arseholes have a lot of stretchability but you have to get there gradually, at least with a lady who hasn't done it a lot before. I use my little finger first, then my middle finger and then my middle and index fingers together, all lubed of course.

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I have attempted with her guidance as well, but Yumi was not comfortable with it. Therefore, I did not 'coax' or pursue the act any further, simply dropped it, out of respect.